Issue #2...the draft...

[Pete]

I'm not going to argue this with you. I'm not a stranger to our military, or the people who have served us in history. The problem isn't the kids going in, it's the PC approach the military takes with kids now. They give 'em freakin' time out chits so they can't be yelled at.

Yes, we have some great kids fighting today, but for the most part, I wouldn't wanna' be in a fox hole with half of 'em. There was a time you'd only say that about a few.

So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The division I ran was 120 people. My opinion is based on 21 years, 15 of which were in leadership positions. I am saying that even IF you allowed Division Chiefs / First Sgts and Gunny's to take them out back and beat the shiat out of them it will not change anything, you will still have a dirtbag he will just be bruised and mad and will kill or maim you the minute he gets a chance.

 

[MMDad]

With dwindling military budgets and all of the negative press any time a soldier cuts himself shaving, the military doesn't need a mandatory draft. In the old days, a huge military to overwhelm the enemy was needed. The future military will be highly trained and well equipped so fewer people will be needed.

The military doesn't need manual laborers any more. In WWII, you could take a recruit, train him for a few months, and put him on a ship. With modern equipment, a recruit doesn't become useful until around the two year mark. So we'd be paying for all the training, then letting them go just as they become proficient.

I understand that everyone should serve their country in some way, but mandatory service is getting a bit too Marxist for my tastes.

 

[Larry Gude]

Looks like some serious debate...

...is in order for the draft.

 

[Vince]

No way, when I was a division chief it was maddening dealing with the derelict scumbags who had actually volunteered, toss in a bunch of people who are there against their will and it would be intolerable and destructive. Remember the ability of a unit is somewhat similar to the median of a group of numbers in math. If you add a bunch of low numbers the median drops.

In other words, give me 10 motivated happy people and they will kick the crap out of 100 people who don't really want to be there every time.

To make it work, the military could not keep their candy azz, politically correct attitude they have today. They would have to revert to the WWII type training mentality. Old school, like you and I went to. There would be no getting out because you were not compatible, etc. No slaps on the wrist because you screwed up. If they make the division look bad, take em out behind the hangar and This candy azz, bleeding heart liberal attitude for the military doesn't work. The liberals think we can fight a "nice" war. Those that think they can win a war by rules, are in for a sad awakening.

 

[Pete]

To make it work, the military could not keep their candy azz, politically correct attitude they have today. They would have to revert to the WWII type training mentality. Old school, like you and I went to. There would be no getting out because you were not compatible, etc. No slaps on the wrist because you screwed up. If they make the division look bad, take em out behind the hangar and This candy azz, bleeding heart liberal attitude for the military doesn't work. The liberals think we can fight a "nice" war. Those that think they can win a war by rules, are in for a sad awakening.

answered that here

The division I ran was 120 people. My opinion is based on 21 years, 15 of which were in leadership positions. I am saying that even IF you allowed Division Chiefs / First Sgts and Gunny's to take them out back and beat the shiat out of them it will not change anything, you will still have a dirtbag he will just be bruised and mad and will kill or maim you the minute he gets a chance.[/QUOTE]

 

[Vince]

answered that here

The division I ran was 120 people. My opinion is based on 21 years, 15 of which were in leadership positions. I am saying that even IF you allowed Division Chiefs / First Sgts and Gunny's to take them out back and beat the shiat out of them it will not change anything, you will still have a dirtbag he will just be bruised and mad and will kill or maim you the minute he gets a chance.[/QUOTE]

Answer. Kill them first. Good way to weed out the undesirables.

 

[mAlice]

answered that here

Answer. Kill them first. Good way to weed out the undesirables.

Answer: Do it the same way they did it in the old days. Punish the entire platoon, then wait for the blanket party.

 

[oldman]

Being from the old school I think the draft is good. Lots have raised excellent points in favor of it thus far. I can only speak for myself but I had no sense of direction when I got out of high school so volunteered. I wanted to reenlist while in boot camp thinking that's what the military was and I loved it. Sure we had some that didn't want to be there or couldn't take it but it did give a lot of others some real direction in what life is. At that time there were no TV's or washing machines in boot camp either. I am reminded of South Africa where grads had an option, join the military or the police force. I volunteered for Shore Patrol because we got to ride with the police and they were just kids getting the job done. I currently have many friends that couldn't pass the physical to get in and they feel bad that they weren't allowed to serve their country. Granted during my time I was never directly involved with war although I did see bombs exploding in Viet Nam and experienced the majority of the Cold War. I am very proud to have served my country in the military and would have no qualms about doing it over again - were I young and dumb again. Also in my time the pay wasn't great by any means of the word, but all the basics were provided. A mandatory draft ideally occurs when the draftee is still pretty young, hopefully not married and before he/she begins their career - so money isn't something they need oodles of as long as the basics are provided. I reenlisted off Viet Nam, tax free, and got $1500. Today that isn't anything, but back then I felt like Bill Gates. IMO, being in the military, volunteer or not, is no different than being in any job market. How many are working today that don't like their jobs? I agree the military is not for everyone but I do believe everyone should experience it if not for a couple of formative years.

 

[Larry Gude]

This is why 'old school'...

Being from the old school I think the draft is good. Lots have raised excellent points in favor of it thus far. I can only speak for myself but I had no sense of direction when I got out of high school so volunteered. I wanted to reenlist while in boot camp thinking that's what the military was and I loved it. Sure we had some that didn't want to be there or couldn't take it but it did give a lot of others some real direction in what life is. At that time there were no TV's or washing machines in boot camp either. I am reminded of South Africa where grads had an option, join the military or the police force. I volunteered for Shore Patrol because we got to ride with the police and they were just kids getting the job done. I currently have many friends that couldn't pass the physical to get in and they feel bad that they weren't allowed to serve their country. Granted during my time I was never directly involved with war although I did see bombs exploding in Viet Nam and experienced the majority of the Cold War. I am very proud to have served my country in the military and would have no qualms about doing it over again - were I young and dumb again. Also in my time the pay wasn't great by any means of the word, but all the basics were provided. A mandatory draft ideally occurs when the draftee is still pretty young, hopefully not married and before he/she begins their career - so money isn't something they need oodles of as long as the basics are provided. I reenlisted off Viet Nam, tax free, and got $1500. Today that isn't anything, but back then I felt like Bill Gates. IMO, being in the military, volunteer or not, is no different than being in any job market. How many are working today that don't like their jobs? I agree the military is not for everyone but I do believe everyone should experience it if not for a couple of formative years.

...is 'old school' and not 'now school'...no paragraph breaks in old school.

 

[oldman]

...is 'old school' and not 'now school'...no paragraph breaks in old school.

Sorry, I wasn't trained by the military to make paragraphs. They just said make your point and move on. We weren't required to be politically correct, just correct in our decisions. And just maybe "now school" should be more of the "old school". I gave my opinion and have yet to read anything that would sway me to believe otherwise.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm just being a smart azz...

Sorry, I wasn't trained by the military to make paragraphs. They just said make your point and move on. We weren't required to be politically correct, just correct in our decisions. And just maybe "now school" should be more of the "old school". I gave my opinion and have yet to read anything that would sway me to believe otherwise.

...your point is well made (hard to read though!)

 

[Vince]

Sorry, I wasn't trained by the military to make paragraphs. They just said make your point and move on. We weren't required to be politically correct, just correct in our decisions. And just maybe "now school" should be more of the "old school". I gave my opinion and have yet to read anything that would sway me to believe otherwise.

 

[gumbo]

Definitely disagree. Not only should there be a draft, but it should be mandatory for everyone right out of high school. Minimum of two years of mandatory service with everyone going into the reserves after that. It would give us a better prepared military and not have to train new recruits for war or emergencies. They would have already gone through basic training, etc.

Not to mention the benefits of teaching the higher majority of the youths today, that don't know..How to work ! How to be organized, How to be respectful and what respect is about, or how to follow instruction.
Why not ! Parents can't seem to cut the umbilical cord.

Just anther thought!... Seeing how nothing is free, and nothing should be.
All those piling in here from south of the border.
They want citizenship, 'thats good" SERVE..with English classes being mandatory.

 

[gumbo]

With dwindling military budgets and all of the negative press any time a soldier cuts himself shaving, the military doesn't need a mandatory draft. In the old days, a huge military to overwhelm the enemy was needed. The future military will be highly trained and well equipped so fewer people will be needed.

The military doesn't need manual laborers any more. In WWII, you could take a recruit, train him for a few months, and put him on a ship. With modern equipment, a recruit doesn't become useful until around the two year mark. So we'd be paying for all the training, then letting them go just as they become proficient.

I understand that everyone should serve their country in some way, but mandatory service is getting a bit too Marxist for my tastes.

Question for you !
What if the military trained those in the military, to do the jobs of all the civilians working on military bases ?
And for sheots and giggles lets' say trained the military personnel to do the jobs of government contractors.
Sure! allot of over paid people that play on the computer all day will be out of work. But why the hell should the government support civilians, when they can be self supporting or at least more self supporting.
I know it's easier said than done.. So Draft um all for 4 years, teach um to make guns, weapons,tanks. Military factory's with real military personnel.

I'm I sounding communist?

 

[BuddyLee]

I'm with Vrai on this one, "draft only in emergency."

I'd be weary of us becoming a totalitarian state. On top of that, with all these extra bodies, that'd make for more excuse for more conflict.

Too communist for me.

How about paying these hero's more and giving them something to fight for.

 

[Bustem' Down]

I don't want to work with someone whose forced to be in the military. Also, with the new kinder gentler military, we really have no tools left to take care of thse people anyways.

 

[BuddyLee]

kinder gentler military

On that note, I wonder if they'd accept gay's, drag's, transgendered, and midget's among others. Everyone has to play the game, right?

 

[Bustem' Down]

On that note, I wonder if they'd accept gay's, drag's, transgendered, and midget's among others. Everyone has to play the game, right?

Midgets would meet the physical requirements, but I have no problem with any of the others.

 

[BuddyLee]

Midgets would meet the physical requirements, but I have no problem with any of the others.

Why should midgets get a free pass? Some on the boards seem to suggest that 'everyone' should have to go, regardless.

 

[gumbo]

I don't want to work with someone whose forced to be in the military. Also, with the new kinder gentler military, we really have no tools left to take care of thse people anyways.

Aren't we all forced to do something in life ?

Nevermind ! What was I thinking. Thats old school, live at home with Mommy and Daddy tell your 40 is now the in thing.
I knew someone should have assassinated that DR. Spock guy.