J.F. Kerry: He just keeps stepping all over himself

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Yeah, like rraley.

Chris Matthews had a Kerry supporter and a Swift Boat guy on his show tonight and that pretty much decided it for me. The Kerry guy was angry and defensive, yet the SB guy was just very calm and matter-of-fact. Matthews tried real hard to not let the SB guy get a word in edgewise but the body language and tone was there.

I'll have to catch that later tonight. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Pushrod]

This is another reason why everyone should vote libertarian. Michael Badnarik for President!

www.badnarik.org

 

[Larry Gude]

Here's a simple question...

...for Chris Mathews:

If the motives of the rather large group of senior people denouncing Kerry are suspect then isn't it possible, ney probable, that perhaps, just maybe, one in a million, that the motives of the handful who support Kerry may also be...dare I say...suspect?

Can we then have a fair look at the facts?

11 people can watch you murder somebody and if the 12th person on the jury says you're innocent, in our system, you're innocent BUT we still got us a dead body.

Chris would not let the anti Kerry guy go through that dead body, as it were. The guy has a pile of sworn statements and documents.

 

[ylexot]

Re: Here's a simple question...

Originally posted by Larry Gude
...for Chris Mathews:

If the motives of the rather large group of senior people denouncing Kerry are suspect then isn't it possible, ney probable, that perhaps, just maybe, one in a million, that the motives of the handful who support Kerry may also be...dare I say...suspect?

Can we then have a fair look at the facts?

11 people can watch you murder somebody and if the 12th person on the jury says you're innocent, in our system, you're innocent BUT we still got us a dead body.

Chris would not let the anti Kerry guy go through that dead body, as it were. The guy has a pile of sworn statements and documents.

Exactly.

I have a little more trust in the swiftvets. Why? Because Kerry's own account of the events that led to his Silver Star tell me that he doesn't deserve it, IMHO.

 

[BuddyLee]

Re: Re: Here's a simple question...

Originally posted by ylexot
Exactly.

I have a little more trust in the swiftvets. Why? Because Kerry's own account of the events that led to his Silver Star tell me that he doesn't deserve it, IMHO.

Of course he didn't deserve his medals. I find this a cheap shot. Take this into consideration, if Kerry didn't deserve his medals and was still awarded them then all of the military's medals and awards that have been received by the men and women of the military are tarnished as worthless.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by BuddyLee
Take this into consideration, if Kerry didn't deserve his medals and was still awarded them then all of the military's medals and awards that have been received by the men and women of the military are tarnished as worthless.

So if ONE person doesn't deserve recognition, that means NO ONE deserves recognition?

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
So if ONE person doesn't deserve recognition, that means NO ONE deserves recognition?

Being that it's in the military and being that the military has a long history of honor and integrity, then yes.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by BuddyLee
Being that it's in the military and being that the military has a long history of honor and integrity, then yes.

Well, I don't believe in the "one bad apple" line of thinking.

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Well, I don't believe in the "one bad apple" line of thinking.

Sorry Vrai, I just can't swallow what everyone is trying to feed me. I can't believe with beyond a doubt that our military would give a soldier medals that he/she did not deserve.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by BuddyLee
Sorry Vrai, I just can't swallow what everyone is trying to feed me. I can't believe with beyond a doubt that our military would give a soldier medals that he/she did not deserve.

I think it probably happens all the time, especially during time of war. But that's neither here nor there. My big problem with Kerry's medals isn't whether he deserved them or not - it's that he disparaged them after he got them and now is trying to use them as a campaign tool.

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
My big problem with Kerry's medals isn't whether he deserved them or not - it's that he disparaged them after he got them and now is trying to use them as a campaign tool.

Methinks that's where these swiftboaters motivation come from.

 

[Sparx]

Originally posted by ylexot
He was not a "probable target". The White House would have been a probable target, not some little elementary school in Florida. Think about it. You have to assume that the terrorists knew where the president was (which was only announced a couple days before he went). Then they would have to find a flight to use (which would be determined by the location, takeoff time, etc) and buy several tickets for the flight. Then they would have to find the school from the air. That's the tough part. It's not going to be on the charts. The place is small, so they would have to fly fairly low and slow. There would be enough warning for the President to evac if he was in danger.

As for the kids being "collateral damage", they would be "collateral damage" whether or not he stays...assuming they could even target the school.

So, You're saying he knew it was just planes crashing into buildings and not some other form of attack in conjunction with it? I doubt it

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Sparx
So, You're saying he knew it was just planes crashing into buildings and not some other form of attack in conjunction with it? I doubt it

fool

 

[Otter]

Originally posted by Pete
fool

well said

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by BuddyLee
Sorry Vrai, I just can't swallow what everyone is trying to feed me. I can't believe with beyond a doubt that our military would give a soldier medals that he/she did not deserve.

fool

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by BuddyLee
Sorry Vrai, I just can't swallow what everyone is trying to feed me. I can't believe with beyond a doubt that our military would give a soldier medals that he/she did not deserve.

BuddyLee,

The Army gave out over 1.3 million Bronze Stars (the 1.3 million figure was up through 1971). The minimum requirement to automatically receive one was that a soldier serving in country had to receive either a Combat Infantry Badge or a Combat Medical Badge, that is it. Of course many did so much more. As each service sets their own standards for the awards and have their own process for determining who will be decorated it is possible for someone to take advantage of the system. I am unsure of the criteria or any exact numbers of Navy decorations but am searching for that data.

I also don’t challenge any medals earned by anyone, but the thing that bothers me about Kerry was all the film he was able to have shot of his supposed exploits, most have been claimed to be re-enactments. This is something that your average GI would never think of doing. There was something motivating Kerry other then dedication to service and duty to our nation when he was creating his movies. If they were shot during actual combat then my opinion of him would be something unfit to publicly state.

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by Pete
fool

Takes one to know one.

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by Ken King
BuddyLee,

The Army gave out over 1.3 million Bronze Stars (the 1.3 million figure was up through 1971). The minimum requirement to automatically receive one was that a soldier serving in country had to receive either a Combat Infantry Badge or a Combat Medical Badge, that is it. Of course many did so much more. As each service sets their own standards for the awards and have their own process for determining who will be decorated it is possible for someone to take advantage of the system. I am unsure of the criteria or any exact numbers of Navy decorations but am searching for that data.

I also don’t challenge any medals earned by anyone, but the thing that bothers me about Kerry was all the film he was able to have shot of his supposed exploits, most have been claimed to be re-enactments. This is something that your average GI would never think of doing. There was something motivating Kerry other then dedication to service and duty to our nation when he was creating his movies. If they were shot during actual combat then my opinion of him would be something unfit to publicly state.

Thanks for the explanation Ken.

 

[Penn]

Ken, clear something up for me if possible: Who puts you in for a medal, be it Purple Heart, Bronze or Silver Star?

I was under the impression you had to submit the paperwork to your superiors to get the ball rolling.

I distinctly recall the pro- Kerry guy on Chris Matthews show last night say the hospital or clinic started the paperwork going for Kerry.

Plus, at least one of the Purple Heart medals that was awarded to Kerry on a self-inflicted wound. That is, while firing a grenade launcher, a piece of shrapnel from the round he fired grazed his forearm. It was covered with a band-aid, the story goes.

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by penncam
Ken, clear something up for me if possible: Who puts you in for a medal, be it Purple Heart, Bronze or Silver Star?

I was under the impression you had to submit the paperwork to your superiors to get the ball rolling.

I distinctly recall the pro- Kerry guy on Chris Matthews show last night say the hospital or clinic started the paperwork going for Kerry.

Plus, at least one of the Purple Heart medals that was awarded to Kerry on a self-inflicted wound. That is, while firing a grenade launcher, a piece of shrapnel from the round he fired grazed his forearm. It was covered with a band-aid, the story goes.

The current rules are that a recommendation of an award for heroism can be recommended by any superior commissioned officer that witnessed or is made aware of the act to the individual’s commanding officer. Becoming aware of an act could be accomplished by post-mission reports/de-briefings, reports made by witnesses, or by an individual directly reporting their actions. I am unsure if the procedures in the late 60s early 70s were the same; I suspect that they were similar if not exactly the same.

After a person is recommended their commanding officer completes the recommendation citation and forwards it up the chain to the person with the delegated authority to award the medal. Certain medals require Service Secretary (SECNAV) endorsement, some require the service Commander in Chief (CNO) endorsement, and some can be awarded at command level, it is different for each service and is determined by the award recommended and the level at which award authority has been delegated. The Silver Star is authorized by SECNAV and the Bronze Star can be approved at the lowest level of command that has approving authority.

For Purple Hearts it has been an accepted practice for medical units to make the initial recommendation as they are capable to determine the nature of the injury and make a determination as to if it was in fact combat connected. They still have to send it through the individual’s chain of command as it heads towards the awarding authority which for the Navy is the CNO.

As to the self-inflicted wound, the rules state that a wound suffered from friendly-fire is a qualifying wound if it occurred while engaging the enemy.