Kerry the Vet....part 1

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
Originally posted by Spoiled
Your husband is/was off shore directly dealing with people who were in combat - i would think more highly of him than someone that just sat back at a desk job...

Hey there... thanks for taking a collective crap on the Civil Servants who could be making a lot more money by working in industry, but choose to stay in the DoD because they believe in the cause they're working toward.

I guess you'd just as soon have all those aircraft and boats and tanks out there operating without having someone back home ensuring their safe operation.

I don't claim to be giving the same sacrifice as my uniformed fellow countrymen, but lots of people like me are sacrificing just the same.

And don't even get me started on the people who are in the military working a desk job because of some injury or disability that won't allow them out on the combat field. I guess they're just expendable and their service means nothing as well.

...Maybe you should go overseas and spend some time with those combat troops and find out if they'd prefer to have no support back home.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Spoiled
I understand where you are coming from, yes both bush and kerry served their country im not denying that... Im saying they served it in different degrees... Sure bush could have given his life to his country, sure his life could have been in danger, but it was never in danger to the level Kerry's was... My point is Bush cant say he is a Vietnam vet, and he did not see combat. Kerry was there, he has purple hearts (how ever controversial they maybe he still has them) he knows more about being in a combat zone than bush... You people bash kerry for serving this country and putting his life on the line for a war in which he didnt believe in because a few people didnt like him. Bush is no better, he joined the national guard to avoid real combat... You cant please everyone. I usualy look upon war veteran more highly than just a person that "did their time"... War does many things to you mentaly and physicaly, many of them cant be undone - these things are above and beyond what "doing your time" does...
Hey Soiled,

It’s obvious that you know nothing about the dangers inherent to military aviation. Bush flew the F-102, affectionately known as the “Widow-maker”, during his service. Between 1957 and 1973 we lost 70 aircrew in this type aircraft. It wasn’t as safe as you make it out to be. How many swift boat captains did we lose? For that matter how many non-aviation Navy types were lost during Vietnam? I wonder what the safest service was during that time for non-flyers?

Originally posted by Spoiled
If kerry felt something was going on against policy or international law he should have spoken up... Just like what happened at Abu Ghraib, are the people testifying backstabbing their fellow militia men?
Yep, joining and supporting a communist sponsored organization sounds real patriotic to me. I must ask you the following. When Kerry testified before Congress claiming the alleged war crimes being committed and that he himself had partaken in, has this all been forgotten and his acts are no longer crimes against humanity?
 

brinanemsmama

New Member
Originally posted by Spoiled
Your husband is/was off shore directly dealing with people who were in combat - i would think more highly of him than someone that just sat back at a desk job...

People with desk jobs have their contributions too. They are able to relay information. They make sure that servicemembers are payed so that they don't have to worry about how their families are doing financially back home. They make sure that the proper personnel are where they are needed, etc... Those with desk jobs are just as important as those on the front lines.

Originally posted by Spoiled
If kerry felt something was going on against policy or international law he should have spoken up... Just like what happened at Abu Ghraib, are the people testifying backstabbing their fellow militia men?

They are doing the right thing. They are testifying against those that did wrong. They are coming out about specific wrongdoing that a few individuals participated in. They are not protesting against the entire war and saying that everyone over there is committing those acts.
 

Spoiled

Active Member
Originally posted by Ken King

Yep, joining and supporting a communist sponsored organization sounds real patriotic to me. I must ask you the following. When Kerry testified before Congress claiming the alleged war crimes being committed and that he himself had partaken in, has this all been forgotten and his acts are no longer crimes against humanity?
Communism wasnt bad, it just wasnt our way of government and for the idealist it was perfect... but unfortunatly communism was never established in its pure form.. Do you own a pair of Nikes? if so that is supporting communism they are made in Vietnam, not only are you supporting communism but you are taking away jobs from americans... His crimes arent forgotten - we all make mistakes, some greater than others, him testifying shows he knew they where wrong... We have someone that invaded a sovergn nation without (we realize this now) true reason, and he still refuses to openly say "I was wrong"

Originally posted by sleuth
Hey there... thanks for taking a collective crap on the Civil Servants who could be making a lot more money by working in industry, but choose to stay in the DoD because they believe in the cause they're working toward.

I guess you'd just as soon have all those aircraft and boats and tanks out there operating without having someone back home ensuring their safe operation.

I don't claim to be giving the same sacrifice as my uniformed fellow countrymen, but lots of people like me are sacrificing just the same.

And don't even get me started on the people who are in the military working a desk job because of some injury or disability that won't allow them out on the combat field. I guess they're just expendable and their service means nothing as well.

...Maybe you should go overseas and spend some time with those combat troops and find out if they'd prefer to have no support back home.
I respect them all, i just respect some more than others... Thank you for making it seem as if i dont respect anyone...


Originally posted by tlatchaw
[B
The wrong thing would be to come back to the US, participate as a key speaker in big anti-war rallies, toss your medals or ribbons, or bits of paper or maybe nothing at all at the white house, run down your country overall, write a book about how bad everybody was, etc. sound familiar?
[/B]

WHere these not the same freedoms we where fighting for in vietnam? and now iraq? Why shouldnt he be allowed to do this? he fought for the freedom he should be allowed to use it however he pleases,,,
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
Originally posted by Spoiled
Communism wasnt bad, it just wasnt our way of government and for the idealist it was perfect... but unfortunatly communism was never established in its pure form.. Do you own a pair of Nikes? if so that is supporting communism they are made in Vietnam, not only are you supporting communism but you are taking away jobs from americans... His crimes arent forgotten - we all make mistakes, some greater than others, him testifying shows he knew they where wrong... We have someone that invaded a sovergn nation without (we realize this now) true reason, and he still refuses to openly say "I was wrong"

Communism in theory, as it is in practice, was and is inherently evil... wrong... malaligned. Pure Communism is altruism. And I'm going to defer to those who are much better writers than me to expressing why it is so evil.

"'The greatest good for the greatest number' is one of the most vicious slogans ever foisted on humanity. This slogan has no concrete specific meaning. There is no way to interpret it benevolently, but a great many ways in which it can be used to justify the most vicious actions. What is the definition of "the good" in this slogan? None, except: whatever is good for the greatest number. Who, in any particular issue, decides what is good for the greatest number? Why, the greatest number.
If you consider this moral, you would have to approve of the following examples, which are exact applications of this slogan in practice: fifty-one percent of humanity enslaving the other forty-nine; nine hungry cannibals eating the tenth one; a lynching mob murdering a man whom they consider dangerous to the community. There were seventy million Germans in Germany and six hundred thousand Jews. The greatest number (the Germans) supported the Nazi government which told them that their greatest good would be served by exterminating the smaller number (the Jews) and grabbing their property. This was the horrible achieved in practice by a vicious slogan accepted in theory. But, you might say, the majority in all these examples did not achieve any real good fro itself either? No. It didn't. Because "the good" is not determined by counting numbers and is not acheived by the sacrifice of anyone to anyone. "

...

"The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value. Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."

...

"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."

All of the above quotes are by Ayn Rand.
 

tlatchaw

Not dead yet.
Originally posted by Spoiled
WHere these not the same freedoms we where fighting for in vietnam? and now iraq? Why shouldnt he be allowed to do this? he fought for the freedom he should be allowed to use it however he pleases,,,

Sure, there's nothing illegal about running down America, protesting, writing a book about how bad this country is, whatever. It's just NOT what I look for in a leader, especially Commander in Chief.
 

Voter2002

"Fill your hands you SOB!
Originally posted by SamSpade
How does Kerry get away with being both a war hero AND a war criminal at the same time?

It's the same with most liberal Democrats - morals don't apply to them...just everyone else.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Spoiled
We have someone that invaded a sovergn nation without (we realize this now) true reason, and he still refuses to openly say "I was wrong"

You're right, Saddam has NEVER publically apologized for invading Kuwait, or Iran for that matter.

You want to know why you did not apologize to everyone here, for getting up this morning, and opening your mouth? Because you don't think it was wrong, that's why.

I, for one, compeletely agree with why we went into Iraq. Hell, I wonder why we took so long. The inspections were a condition of the LAST war, and he not only balked at them, he SHOT at our guys in the air and tossed the inspectors out. He was supposed to be tearing down his weapons making facilities, but he was BUILDING them. He wasn't supposed to have missiles with ranges over so many miles, and he was re-tooling them right after the weapons inspectors left - and he did it again after he got caught doing it. He was supposed to be selling oil for food, but he let the people die and bribed foreign officials to look the other way while he sold more oil for his programs.

Apologize? Hell, people who *ask* that ought to apologize.

Because **THEY'RE** wrong, that's why.
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
Originally posted by SamSpade
How does Kerry get away with being both a war hero AND a war criminal at the same time?

Originally posted by Voter2002
It's the same with most liberal Democrats - morals don't apply to them...just everyone else.

:yeahthat: Democrats want more government control, which is closer to Communism than less government control. So Kerry gets away with it because it's for the "greater good" of the Democrat party.

See this:

Originally posted by sleuth

"'The greatest good for the greatest number' is one of the most vicious slogans ever foisted on humanity. This slogan has no concrete specific meaning. There is no way to interpret it benevolently, but a great many ways in which it can be used to justify the most vicious actions. What is the definition of "the good" in this slogan? None, except: whatever is good for the greatest number. Who, in any particular issue, decides what is good for the greatest number? Why, the greatest number.
If you consider this moral, you would have to approve of the following examples, which are exact applications of this slogan in practice: fifty-one percent of humanity enslaving the other forty-nine; nine hungry cannibals eating the tenth one; a lynching mob murdering a man whom they consider dangerous to the community. There were seventy million Germans in Germany and six hundred thousand Jews. The greatest number (the Germans) supported the Nazi government which told them that their greatest good would be served by exterminating the smaller number (the Jews) and grabbing their property. This was the horrible achieved in practice by a vicious slogan accepted in theory. But, you might say, the majority in all these examples did not achieve any real good fro itself either? No. It didn't. Because "the good" is not determined by counting numbers and is not acheived by the sacrifice of anyone to anyone. "
 

valentino

Member
Originally posted by brinanemsmama
I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall so this will be the last thing I say on this thread.

We do live in a free country and are able to voice our opinions. The thing (and I believe it should be required) is to know when to use that right & how. He served as an officer and was looked to for leadership. Imagine how those who served with him & were still over there (since he did get out of combat using an obscure regulation) felt when they heard about Kerry protesting the war. Kerry participated in the Winter Soldier Investigation where his fellow servicemen were accused of war atrocities.

I personally do not someone such as Kerry to serve as the commander-in-chief. My husband is in the Navy & my brother is in the Army Reserves currently serving in Iraq. I do not want the orders that could affect either one of them coming from someone like John Kerry.

In regards to Bush, you're right he did not see combat. He did manage to get a slot in the Texas National Guard. So what? He was still in a position of serving our nation if the need arose. Again...we were still involved in the Cold War. The threat was real. People participated in drills in the event of an attack from Russia. One of his duties was to intercept a missile if it was heading for the US. That was deemed necessary at that point in the particular climate of that time.

Maybe you should bang it harder and knock some sense into yourself.

Your main problem is that you think your opinion is so damn special that you are allowed to tell everyone else that they do not know anything.

If Kerry did not want to go to war, so what, obviously Bush did not either, so they are even in a sense. Spoiled's point seems to be that while they both tried to get out of things, Bush's family money and politcal pull kept him out of harms way.

I am not the biggest fan of John Kerry, but I feel like he is at least a more intelligent person than Bush, and he has first hand knowledge of war, so as not to be so eager to get us into another one. It is almost funny to me that many people feel like they cannot be unsupportive of Bush because they feel like they will be letting down the service men and women that are over in Iraq risking their lives. I work for a defense contractor, and I look at that as a way for me to help some of my friends and many others who need the type of equipment we provide. That does not mean that I have to support the war itself or the president who could not manage to get better than a C average, but miraculously made it into Yale, even after his state college denied his application.

Since you know everything I am sure you will come up with an amazing response, but someone had to at try to stop the ignorance from spreading.:burning:
 

Spoiled

Active Member
He was still building these weapons fecilities? like the 2 mobile chemical labs that turned out to by hydrogen stations for weather baloons? sadam planned to annex those nations - he was a dictator that came to rule by force... why would he say sorry? he didnt give a damn apparently... And lets not even talk about morals - bush has said this is a crusade against the extremists, you cant fight what they do in the name of god in the name of your god... it doesnt work that way... what ever... im out for a while
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Originally posted by valentino
someone had to at try to stop the ignorance from spreading.
Really? Who's going to stop you? :bubble:

I feel like he is at least a more intelligent person than Bush
Aren't you the freaks who say he's the brilliant mastermind of 9-11 coverup, fooling not only the American people but ALL of Congress as well? And don't you also think he is so powerful he can tank an economy by simply taking the Oath of Office? And that he is such an evil genius that he can destroy THE WHOLE WORLD with his economic policies?

Why bother to get out of bed in the morning when this incredible super-villain (and erstwhile moron) is running our country? He'll just send his goon sqaud to toss you in some torture chamber. He might bring in some dogs to scare you or make you wear panties on your head. I'd go climb under a rock if I were you so that moron/genius can't get you.

Idiot.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
And let me tell you something else, you little fascist:

Originally posted by valentino
Your main problem is that you think your opinion is so damn special that you are allowed to tell everyone else that they do not know anything.
Brin can tell you anything she wants - free speech, remember? Or do you only think that applies when someone is towing the Commie-Democrat line?
 

valentino

Member
Originally posted by vraiblonde
And let me tell you something else, you little fascist:

Brin can tell you anything she wants - free speech, remember? Or do you only think that applies when someone is towing the Commie-Democrat line?

You are correct, free speech goes both ways...so you have to deal with mine and I have to deal with yours...no big deal

As far as the reason I get up every morning, I love my wife, family, and all of my critters enough to try and make this world a better place for all of us, even if you cannot see it. Call it what you want, but just my opinion.

Commie-Democrat??? Grow up...:bawl:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Originally posted by valentino
I love my wife, family, and all of my critters
Apparently you don't or you'd be more interested in getting rid of terrorist that threaten them. And make no mistake, John Kerry (like Clinton before him) has NO interest in keeping Americans safe from terrorist threat. All he wants is to grandstand and suck in all you yellow dogs that will vote for the D no matter who's name it's after.

He wants to sit in his mansions with his rich wife and tell you how he wants to help the poor.

He wants to fly his big ol' jet and drive his big ol' Suburban and tell you how he's such an environmentalist.

He wants to throw his Vietnam medals over the White House wall and call soldiers "baby killers", then tell you how he supports our military.

Pull your head out.
 

valentino

Member
Originally posted by vraiblonde
Apparently you don't or you'd be more interested in getting rid of terrorist that threaten them. And make no mistake, John Kerry (like Clinton before him) has NO interest in keeping Americans safe from terrorist threat. All he wants is to grandstand and suck in all you yellow dogs that will vote for the D no matter who's name it's after.

He wants to sit in his mansions with his rich wife and tell you how he wants to help the poor.

He wants to fly his big ol' jet and drive his big ol' Suburban and tell you how he's such an environmentalist.

He wants to throw his Vietnam medals over the White House wall and call soldiers "baby killers", then tell you how he supports our military.

Pull your head out.

Making more enemies is a way to protect our future??? Since when?

Let me give you another scenario that is closer to home. Lets just pretend that you are simple Iraqi citizen with no thoughts of jihad or anything just as that and an american tank shoots a hole in your house and kills your whole family. Now whether you agree with Sadaam or not, are you going to just be okay with that? My point is that Iraqi people are for the most part just like us and they deserve the respect that we expect everyday.

BTW, Iraq was not a credible threat and the Taliban and their followers had nothing to to with Iraq before we invaded it. They are only there now because of course, they still hate us.

I am all for defending our coutry and a credible threat. I agreed with going to get Bin Laden and his "army", which of course we never finished that job, but Iraq was just a war that we thought we could win...obviously that was not the case. If we are truly there to help the people, there are many other coutries need a lot more help than Iraq.

800 plus American soldiers have died since major fighting has ended in Iraq and what freedom from fear have we gained, there seems to be more worry now than ever before about someone wanting to kill us in whatever way they can...???
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Originally posted by valentino
BTW, Iraq was not a credible threat and the Taliban and their followers had nothing to to with Iraq before we invaded it.
Dzzzt Dzzzt - Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

:duh:

When you see your buddy Osama, tell him we're gonna find him and feed him to the pigs.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Spoiled
Communism wasnt bad, it just wasnt our way of government and for the idealist it was perfect... but unfortunatly communism was never established in its pure form.. Do you own a pair of Nikes? if so that is supporting communism they are made in Vietnam, not only are you supporting communism but you are taking away jobs from americans... His crimes arent forgotten - we all make mistakes, some greater than others, him testifying shows he knew they where wrong... We have someone that invaded a sovergn nation without (we realize this now) true reason, and he still refuses to openly say "I was wrong"
Communism wasn’t bad? Get the hell out of here. I’ve spent time in Communist countries and trust me I’ll take our “screwed up” system any day. BTW I don’t own Nikes either, never have and probably never will. Nothing to do with where they were made or by whom, it is more of not buying into fads. And if I was buying them list the names of those Americans that I would be taking jobs from? Better yet, name any that would work for the wages paid to those making these shoes? I’m sure you, in your vast experience, wouldn’t do it.

You say his crimes aren’t forgotten? They’re not, you say, then please justify how in the hell you can support anyone who willingly and knowingly committed a crime? Then go on and tell me how he deserves to get off without being held accountable? Unless you think that being elected to the most powerful position in our nation (or any other nation for that matter) is a just punishment?

Your twist on the invasion and overthrow of Iraq is amusing at best. I see that you aren’t much on recent history, namely the requirements imposed on Iraq after the Gulf War where they invaded Kuwait. Brush up on that and the requirements imposed by the world after being forced to withdrawal and then maybe you will garner a little real understanding. You have to quit being spoon fed your information by others and go out and grab it for yourself.
 
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