Legalize drugs?

[Heretic]

War on drugs

How will ending the war on drugs allieve drug problems from non-users?

If something isn't working that doesnt mean to fix it you have to do a complete 180 reversal (unless of course you work for the government and you know what I mean) you try to fix the problems with a certian policy.

So if you think anyone over 18 should have free access to drugs does that mean you want to get rid of perscriptions to obtain drugs? I can see anyone who has the sniffles buying a high strength antibotic and then we get resistant germs that cant be handled by drugs.....

Betty I dont disagree with the fact that the illegal trade of drugs creates some problems in itself but I just don't think your looking into how things will eventually wind up, ie your simplifying the ramifications and repercussions too much.

 

[vraiblonde]

I have never met a single hard core druggie who did not START with pot.

God, I know a TON of them! My Mom is a crisis intervention specialist and she works with chronic alcoholics and drug addicts. There's some VERY self-destructive people out there.

http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=14174#post14174
The link above is a reply to your opinion that pot is a dangerous drug. I posted this a while back to someone else and don't want to repeat myself.

Heretic brings up an excellent point - I don't think people should be able to get heroine, etc, legally when you can't so much as get ulcer medication without a scrip. I mean, if I need a prescription to get my daughter's Crone's meds, it should be at least as difficult to get a drug that will kill you.

 

[SmallTown]

Some would argue that Marijuana is not the "gateway" drug, but rather cigarettes. But since they are legal people don't make a big stink over that. I remember reading awhile back about a doctor who wrote a paper on the issue that hard drug use can be tracked back to marijuana use, which can be tracked back to cigarette smoking, which can me tracked back to kids sucking on a lolipop because they develop this "oral fixation" early in life (needless to say, people had some rather vulgar responses to the oral fixation issue).

Many people have their own myths about how drugs become so popular in the first place.

 

[Larry Gude]

Um, uh, well, yah see...it's like this..people use drugs because it FEELS GOOD. Never mind some BS need to rationalize feelings.

The attempts to rationalize what actually gets people to try them (before they know it feels good) is like wise silly. Peer pressure, music, literature, simple curiosity. Very human, very normal for people to try new things.

This is where parenting comes in. The 60's was a mess because many of those parents just simply didn't know what it was like. They drank booze. The kids could say "you don't know! You don't understand!"

This generation, well, we know. We know why it is called "getting wasted". We know drugs are stupid. We know drugs are for losers. We know that plenty of them can and will kill you.

That's why attempts to legalize drive me mad, wasted knowledge. It could honestly be said that society didn't know 35 years ago if a drugged world was better and that finding out was at least a consideration. You could romantisize the concept of a "tuned in, turned on and dropped out" society, all warm and fuzzy and lovey. Peace. Cool.

Well, we learned. We saw what happened to our heros lives. We saw what chemical dependancy did first friggin hand. Didn't we?

 

[Betty]

Well, why not?

You wanna know why people turn to drugs. While I am sure that there are many reasons from thrills to dispair, I think that a lack of spiritual guidance is the main reason.
We have all stopped thinking about GOD and have put ourselves in His place. We have become gods in our own eyes and if you are not anchored in a bedrock foundation for your beleif system, you are drifting in a sea, tossed about by any wave that comes along. Drugs is one of those waves.
We all think that we do not have to practice a religion, that we are too sophisticated for that kind of stuff. Yet we do not realize that we are the product of that kind of stuff and for most of us (obviously not those of us who have suffered from molesting priests or mind controling cults, I DID say most, not everyone) are better for it and the good in us comes from the religious training that we got from our parents (even if we didn't go to church). We raise our kids without that type of training AND we take them as babies and send them to instutions called day care centers and we wonder what is wrong with these kids?
How would you like to be taken to a place, an adult instutiion such as a prision and dropped off and you watch everyone that you know and love drive away and you are left there by yourself with strangers who may or may not have your best interest at heart. We WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN TO US!!!
But yet we do that to our children so that we can go out and make money to get more things. Kids don't want things, they want US!
Left to raise and fend for themselvs in these institutions, needless to say, many of them turn to drugs.
Now there is no excuse for our generation to turn to drugs, but yet we did it anyway and look what we have wrought upon the earth. It is the fault of the 60s generation who made drugs popular and those 60s parents who either used or still use drugs and don't "feel' that they have a right to tell their kids to STAY AWAY FROM DRUGS. After all they did it and they might be ok.
WELL YOU ARE NOT OK! You are, we are a bunch of self centered idiots who have fallen for every cockamamie idea that has come down the pike and now our kids are paying for our folly.
The 60s generation has alot to answer for when they stand before their creator. MAYBE THAT IS THE REASON THEY DO DRUGS.

 

[vraiblonde]

Betty

I follow no religion, don't even believe in God, and have never had a drug or alcohol problem. And PS, I'm also the child of two alcoholics so the deck was a bit stacked against me. So we can safely say that God has nothing to do with addiction.

My kids went to daycare their whole childhood. So far, not a single one of them has been brought home by the cops, no drugs, no boozing it up, no pregnancies. So we can also say that daycare has nothing to do with addiction.

Let's contrast that to my cousin, who was brought up in a Christian household and her mother's whole job was to care for the family - she does occasional prison terms, drinks, drugs, abuses her kid, you name it.

You think you have all the answers, girlfriend, but you are about as ignorant as the day is long. Maybe if you would take my advice and crack a history book or get on the CDC website for some facts and stats instead of making it up as you go along, you'd have a little more credibility. As it stands, the joke's on you, honey - we're fairly educated people in here so all you're doing is making an ass out of yourself.

For a Libertarian, you sure are judgemental and controlling.

 

[Warron]

I don't necessarily agree that legalizing all currently illegal drugs would be a good thing, but I would not object to them being reviewed on a case by case basis. I definitely don't agree with the blanket banning of all hemp products simply over the fear that someone will smoke it.

I do agree though that the current drug policy in the US has been a complete failure. Its resulted in increased prison populations (the US now is the world leader with over 2 million in prison and another 4 million in jails, probation, and parole) and a major waste of money and resources with little results.

The discovery channel showed an interesting program a few days ago about the war on drugs. The program discussed the interesting US policy of spending billions of dollars on the war on drugs and putting police lives at risk in drug raids here in the US, while the CIA was paying millions of dollars to drug lords and drug runners to stay in business overseas. The CIA's excuse was that drug runners made the best allies because they knew how to get around the laws in their perspective countries. Of coarse, where do you think a large amount of those drugs ended up?

I also find the manner in which the federal government controls drugs to be suspect. The tenth amendment leaves all powers not specifically addressed by the constitution to the states. So in my opinion, drug control should be a state issue. If anyone knows what the constitutional basis for the "Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970" is, I would be interested in knowing it.

 

[Betty]

Statistically, I am proven right

Well, As I keep saying there are EXCEPTIONS to every rule, but statistically, the things I suggest produce better results. But I guess we should continue making policy becausae it works on ONE person, rather than what would be best for the general population.
When you run out of logical discussion, attack the messinger.
I thougth we were discussing things, not getting involved in personal attacks. That is why I was so impressed by this website, but I guess I was too hopeful.
I am glad to see that Warren actually gets my point. Thank you Warren.

 

[Heretic]

Betty, can you please provide these statistics. Often statistics can be massaged to say anything that you want. Heck I use statistics at work all the time to say what I want them to say, no matter what the statistics actually are.

And I never attacked you, I only said that I don't think that you have considered more complex relationships to drugs. And nobody knows what will happen, with any amount of speculation. Changes to policy can't be a radical 180 degree reversal, that would cause havoc.

 

[Betty]

I was only responding to the person who said unkind things to me.
I don't know about someone responding to my point, I have had many respond to my point over the last few days.
I think I hit a nerve on some folks.........

 

[Ken King]

Anybody else watch the ABC special last night this very subject? It touched on some aspects I hadn't thought about as we continue our "losing" war on drugs.

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by cariblue


Didn't see it, Ken. Can you give us a summary?

The gist of it is that no matter what we do there are still going to be people out there making and doing drugs. There is a ton of money to be made and for every pusher you put in jail there are many waiting to fill their shoes. The hopeful dealers look at someone getting busted as a career opportunity. If we go after the source, out into the jungles and spray a defoliant, they will just move deeper into the jungle and grow more. We eradicated the growing in Bolivia and it moved to Columbia. Now that they are working on Columbia the growers are making plans to move back to Bolivia and the cycle continues.

Almost all of the people talked to, other then those in our government, felt that it was a waste of time, energy, and police to go after this as we have. We want the growers to grow bananas and pineapples instead of coca but they have no way to get the crop to market as there are no roads and everything is moved via donkey, which is impractical for the grower to make enough to support his family.

As for users they looked at some of the European countries that have legal smoking shops for hashish and marijuana and the juvenile use rate dropped to 20% (compared to 38% here at home) as they removed the glamour and risk from the adolescents. The shops are strictly controlled as to who can buy and use the drugs and the daily amount that they can consume, kind of like a ration card. They said most of their customers are American’s on vacation and very few are local inhabitants. They even showed a church that allows dealers to operate out of their basement with associated smoking and shooting rooms for heroine and they indicated that drug related crime has fallen significantly. It has similar controls as to how often a person can use it and they stated that a large number of previously useless addicts have been able to return to gainful employment as they just use enough for maintenance (getting to what they call normal without being totally whacked out).

I doubt if we will get any better control on this then we did with alcohol during prohibition. I for one think there are a lot more violent criminals out there that need to be caught by the police that are currently being wasted on catching wasted people.

 

[Warron]

I spent 3 weeks in the Netherlands about 10 years ago including several days in Amsterdam. It was weird having people come up to me on the street selling drugs (I'm not from a big city), but otherwise I felt comfortable walking around.

I read a funny news story a few days ago about a US politician in the Netherlands trying to get them to put more controls on drugs. As the US and dutch politicians were walking around on the street talking about the issues, a guy came up to them offering hash for sale.

 

[Betty]

I think once it is made legal and we have a good PR campaign showing drugs as the crutch for loosers, use will drop in this country too and the police can go after the other criminals.
As for listing my sources: I could spend a few hours and find them and then list them and those of you that disagree with me will not be swayed by my efforts. This is not a term paper, so I won't waste my time. If you don't want to beleive, then don't beleive me, it is a free country. I am free to make my "baseless" statements just as you are free to make yours.

 

[vraiblonde]

I have a friend who did some time for drug running. His take on it was "Okay, I make a couple mil (which is about what he made) and if I get caught, all I'll have to do is 5 years prison (which is what he did). Most people don't make a million working at some job they hate for 5 years. So basically what we're talking about is $2 mil for possibly sitting in stir for 5 years. Not too bad!" So that's what he did.

If the penalty for drug selling and use was higher people wouldn't do it. We either want people to quit using drugs or we don't. This isn't the Federal Govt's tobacco scam here - I'd like to see real laws and not just garbage.

Betty, if would be interesting for each of us to have our own island, yours has legalized drugs, mine beheads anyone who uses. Then we can see who has a better societal situation after a year or two.

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Betty, if would be interesting for each of us to have our own island, yours has legalized drugs, mine beheads anyone who uses. Then we can see who has a better societal situation after a year or two.

Vraiblonde,

Gee, earlier you said you saw no problem with medical uses and now you're beheading people for doing something you said you used to do for pleasure.

I take it your island would allow people to inebriate themselves on alcohol, kill themselves from alcohol use, kill others in a drunken rage, or by a vehicle while driving under the influence. Or do you see alcohol for the drug it is and would behead those folk too?

Regardless of all that I won’t be visiting that island, it sounds almost Arabic in nature.

 

[vraiblonde]

Regardless of all that I won’t be visiting that island, it sounds almost Arabic in nature

Well, you oughta know!

Actually I'd behead anyone who drank to the point of being a hazard for others. If you want to sit on your deck and smoke pot or drink a few beers, have at it. The minute you get caught drunk driving, your head will be rolling down an embankment singing, "I...ain't got no body...."


In a smaller society you can keep better track of problem children. But in a whole country or even state or large city, forget it.

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Well, you oughta know!

Yeah, I've been over there and that is about how they do it. Too bad women don't have mush standing over there or you would fit in with them real well.

 

[jazz lady]

Originally posted by vraiblonde

Actually I'd behead anyone who drank to the point of being a hazard for others.

We'll just start calling you the "Queen of Hearts":

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by jazz lady


We'll just start calling you the "Queen of Hearts"

That was cute, but I think with a towel rapped around her head she would be the perfect Osama bin Blonde.