meanwhile, back at the Surge

[forestal]

suffering 6 times the tragedy of VT.......

Yep, looks like we'll be pulling out next year. Bush is a complete failure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070418/ts_nm/iraq_dc;_ylt=Aq12kwqUVLR0ku.H55SNT6qs0NUE


Suspected Qaeda bombs kill nearly 200 in Baghdad

By Dean Yates and Ibon Villelabeiti 1 hour, 31 minutes ago

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Suspected al Qaeda militants killed nearly 200 people in a wave of car bombings in Baghdad on Wednesday, including one that was the single deadliest attack in the Iraqi capital since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

 

[Roughidle]

Bush is a complete failure.

There's a few ground Commanders who would beg to differ as they see day to day if yes slow improvement since the surge began. If you can't find their stories under the pile of broadcast news dog sh*t then sorry for you. You won't see their stories on the front page or top of the hour broadcasts. Long road ahead and the next easy exit isn't the right way to go.

 

[dustin]

"Maliki says Iraqi security forces will take back control from foreign forces only when they are ready."

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

suffering 6 times the tragedy of VT.......

Yep, looks like we'll be pulling out next year. Bush is a complete failure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070418/ts_nm/iraq_dc;_ylt=Aq12kwqUVLR0ku.H55SNT6qs0NUE


Suspected Qaeda bombs kill nearly 200 in Baghdad

By Dean Yates and Ibon Villelabeiti 1 hour, 31 minutes ago

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Suspected al Qaeda militants killed nearly 200 people in a wave of car bombings in Baghdad on Wednesday, including one that was the single deadliest attack in the Iraqi capital since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

So we should pull out now and this violence continue every day? Then you can say we're stupid for pulling out?

 

[forestal]

Bush's solution is for us to be the permanent guardian angels of Iraq.

It's not possible, and whether or not we are making slow progress, or none at all, it doesn't matter. The Republicans are ready to fold, cut N run in Bush Speak, if there isn't GREAT progress by the Fall of THIS year. They have elections to win in 2008, and losing the pride of American blood to a bunch of savages on the other side of the world doesn't make for good campaign fodder.

There's a few ground Commanders who would beg to differ as they see day to day if yes slow improvement since the surge began. If you can't find their stories under the pile of broadcast news dog sh*t then sorry for you. You won't see their stories on the front page or top of the hour broadcasts. Long road ahead and the next easy exit isn't the right way to go.

 

[forestal]

Yeh, let them kill each other while we watch. It's better than loosing trillions of dollars and thousands of our own soldiers lives while they still kill each other.

So we should pull out now and this violence continue every day? Then you can say we're stupid for pulling out?

 

[aps45819]

why didn't somebody just pull out the fuse?

 

[forestal]

Probably because they weren't using pipe bombs, rather they were using remotely denated munitions.

Don't you ever stop to think?

why didn't somebody just pull out the fuse?

 

[Pete]

Bush's solution is for us to be the permanent guardian angels of Iraq.

It's not possible, and whether or not we are making slow progress, or none at all, it doesn't matter. The Republicans are ready to fold, cut N run in Bush Speak, if there isn't GREAT progress by the Fall of THIS year. They have elections to win in 2008, and losing the pride of American blood to a bunch of savages on the other side of the world doesn't make for good campaign fodder.

Should we juice the whole damn place, take it over, make it the 51st state and control the oil?

 

[forestal]

This is the only 'Surge' you'll be likely to see...

Bush is killing our troops, won't somebody please stop him?

From Wire Reports

BAGHDAD, Iraq – Over the past six months, U.S. troops have died in Iraq at the highest rate of the war, an indication that the conflict is becoming increasingly dangerous for U.S. forces even after more than four years of fighting.

From October 2006 through last month, 532 American soldiers were killed, the most during any six-month period of the war. March also marked the first time that the U.S. military suffered four consecutive months of 80 or more fatalities. April, with at least 58 service members killed through Monday, is on pace to be one of the deadliest months of the conflict for American forces.

 

[Pete]

Probably because they weren't using pipe bombs, rather they were using remotely denated munitions.

Don't you ever stop to think?

You mean the type that are triggered by a cell phone that could be made by just about anyone with a soldering iron and internet access instead of using a gun to mass murder people?

 

[forestal]

Oh, yes, we're making progress in Iraq...Here's the city we sent the Surge to, one day's worth of violence. I'm not sure you can call this progress in any sense of the word.

<st1:city st="on"><st1lace st="on">Baghdad</st1lace></st1:city>:<o></o>

South of Baghdad, gunmen killed a barber outside his shop, a security official said. Iraqi barbers are often targeted by extremists who believe the shaving of beards is un-Islamic.<o></o>

<o></o>

In another attack, gunmen killed a professor at the Islamic Sciences University of Baghdad, Mohammed Ali Hamza, in the Saydiyah district in the southwestern part of the Iraqi capital, a security official said.<o></o>

<o></o>

A roadside bomb in southeastern Baghdad went off near a U.S. army patrol causing damage to a tank, an eyewitness said.<o></o>

<o></o>

U.S. troops killed three militants after their armoured vehicle was hit by an explosively formed projectile and they came under small arms fire in the southwestern Baghdad district of Qadissiya<o></o>

<o></o>

In a sign that Shiite death squads are on the move again after more than two months of quiescence, 25 bodies, most tortured, were found dumped in Baghdad on Tuesday.<o></o>

<o></o>

Kharkh Bank( western Baghdad) 14 : 5 in ( Doura), 4 in ( Amil) , 2 in ( Bayaa) , 2 in (Mamoun), 1 in ( Shulaa) . Rusafa Bank ( eastern Baghdad ) 11 : 5 in Jisr Diyala , 5 in Suleihk and 1 in (Sadr<o></o>

<o></o>

Around 10.45 pm , clashes between gunmen and joint forces of the Iraqi army and the American took place killing one civilian and injuring another one. <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 11.am ,two policemen were injured during clashes between gunmen and policemen on the main road of Mansour neighborhood ( 14th of Ramadhan street).<o></o>

<o></o>

Around 11.30 am, clashes took place between the Iraqi arm and gunmen having one injury with the army side. <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 12.00 pm, a roadside bomb targeted an American convoy near the road of Baghdad international airport ( in Amil district) having one vehicle damaged on the American side and one civilian injured ( a child). <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 1.30 pm, mortar shelling targeted Amiriya neighborhood near the print (at Al-Amel Ashabi street)killing one civilian and injuring 4. <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 1.30 pm, a civilian was killed by the American fire near Al-Qadisiya neighborhood without knowing the reasons behind that incident . <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 2pm, 5 corpses were found in Jisr Diyala river ((east of Baghdad). <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 2.15 pm, a roadside bomb exploded in Al-Qadisiya neighborhood without casualties . <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 4.30 pm, gunmen attacked the headquarter of ( Iraqi Islamic party) in Amiriya neighborhood destroying the building without casualties . <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 5 pm, gunmen attacked the headquarter of ( Iraqi Islamic party) in Ghazaliya neighborhood destroying the and the neighboring houses without casualties . <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 5.30 pm, mortar shelling targeted Doura neighborhood ( street No.60) injuring 4 civilians. <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 6 pm, a roadside bomb targeted a police patrol injuring 4 policemen. <o></o>

<o></o>

Around 6.30 pm, gunmen attacked civilians in Al-Salam neighborhood near Amil ( west of Baghdad) killing one civilian and injuring 3. <o></o>

<o> </o>

In a sign that Shiite death squads are on the move again after more than two months of quiescence, 25 bodies, most tortured, were found dumped in Baghdad on Tuesday.<o></o>

<o> </o>

<o></o>

<o></o>

 

[forestal]

I actually don't think you could make one.

You mean the type that are triggered by a cell phone that could be made by just about anyone with a soldering iron and internet access instead of using a gun to mass murder people?

 

[This_person]

Bush's solution is for us to be the permanent guardian angels of Iraq.

It's not possible, and whether or not we are making slow progress, or none at all, it doesn't matter. The Republicans are ready to fold, cut N run in Bush Speak, if there isn't GREAT progress by the Fall of THIS year. They have elections to win in 2008, and losing the pride of American blood to a bunch of savages on the other side of the world doesn't make for good campaign fodder.

I'm not that bright, so I have to look to other experiences to see how long to expect something like this to take. After we (the only country in the world to do so) dropped nuclear weapons and defeated the snots out of Japan, how long were we there before we decided they could handle the country in a way that wasn't a danger to us? How about Germany? Korea? We don't have any troops any of these places anymore, right? Just a couple of months and everything was fine.....

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

why didn't somebody just pull out the fuse?

...post of the day!

 

[Roughidle]

why didn't somebody just pull out the fuse?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to aps45819 again.

 

[ylexot]

I actually don't think you could make one.

Actually, remote triggers are extremely simple and hardware is readily available. Personally, I'd stay away from cell phones and go with FRS radios since they would be less traceable, less expensive, and you could trigger multiple devices simultaneously over a pretty good range. But that's just thinking off the top of my head. Explosives on the other hand...I wouldn't have a clue how to make any. Don't want to either...I'd get into too much trouble blowing stuff up in the back yard.

 

[Larry Gude]

This is one issue...

I'm not that bright, so I have to look to other experiences to see how long to expect something like this to take. After we (the only country in the world to do so) dropped nuclear weapons and defeated the snots out of Japan, how long were we there before we decided they could handle the country in a way that wasn't a danger to us? How about Germany? Korea? We don't have any troops any of these places anymore, right? Just a couple of months and everything was fine.....

...where I, ever so painfully, agree with my good pal forestal;

We wiped Germany and Japan OUT. We were in total control and ALLOWED them to take over at out time and pace.

Iraq, we never subdued. We never secured the borders. We never killed all the bad guys. We've got this giant tar baby and there sits the manpower needed to secure the country with its own citizens and what is happening? We're still trying to do it, four years later? We can't make them or teach them to trust each other and have common bonds. There is no insurgents unless Iraqi's allow it. There is no outside interference unless we allow it.

Bush has us running around plugging holes in the dike with our fingers and the surge is simply more fingers, while water is pouring over the top.

Evey single US soldier doing police and guard work in Iraq is one more than should be there at this late date. Either Iraqi's won't do it because it's easier to let us or they won't do it for whaterver ethnic, religious or tribal reason they have. There is no "Iraq" and that was the great misjudgement.

 

[This_person]

...where I, ever so painfully, agree with my good pal forestal;

We wiped Germany and Japan OUT. We were in total control and ALLOWED them to take over at out time and pace.

Iraq, we never subdued. We never secured the borders. We never killed all the bad guys. We've got this giant tar baby and there sits the manpower needed to secure the country with its own citizens and what is happening? We're still trying to do it, four years later? We can't make them or teach them to trust each other and have common bonds. There is no insurgents unless Iraqi's allow it. There is no outside interference unless we allow it.

Bush has us running around plugging holes in the dike with our fingers and the surge is simply more fingers, while water is pouring over the top.

Evey single US soldier doing police and guard work in Iraq is one more than should be there at this late date. Either Iraqi's won't do it because it's easier to let us or they won't do it for whaterver ethnic, religious or tribal reason they have. There is no "Iraq" and that was the great misjudgement.

I have to agree with some of your specifics, but still disagree with the big picture. Many of the specifics of this war are different than some of the bigger and smaller ones we've had before, but the big picture is that it takes a long time to get a country to stand up to a whole new way of life. We're still in between the Koreas, 50+ years later. We still have a strong presence in Japan, because we wrote their Constitution such that they can't do any more than almost defend themselves. 60+ years later. We live in a microwave society, and we're fighting campfire problems. It's going to take longer. The specifics of border control, well, you're right on there. Getting them to get the fear out is going to take a lot longer. Remember, we walked away from them once, and we have strong, loud, stupid voices calling for our withdrawal too soon again. They have no reason to trust us. None. Meanwhile, we didn't secure their borders, and they fight like children (except with AK-47's) amongst themselves. I do think there really was no strong "Iraq", though, and that was a miscalculation on our part.

 

[Larry Gude]

It happens...

but the big picture is that it takes a long time to get a country to stand up to a whole new way of life.

...a whole lot quicker if you kill everyone not in favor just as soon as you can.

What we are doing now amounts to under dosing an antibiotic. It's not enough to kill the disease and it's creating a resistance to the medicine in the mean time.

I'd be happy to have the same presence in Iraq that we do in Japan and even the Koreas.

Remember, we walked away from them once,

Yes, we did. Would you trust someone, ever again, who got your Madison's and Washington's and Franklin's to stick their necks out only to have them stretched? That's what 41 did, a Bay of Pigs in the desert.

And you're right about 'no Iraq'. The guesstimate that Iraq was a good candidate for democracy due to strong national identity doesn't seem too accurate. We've got Kurds, Shia's and Sunni's and the Turks don't want strong Kurds, the Iranians want to keep the Shia's as a buffer and the Saudis want the same from the Sunni's.

Somehow, this was discounted 4 years ago.