More gross over spending.

[gumbo]

Here's an example of how it worked: The Ashbritt company was paid $23 for every cubic yard of debris it removed. It in turn hired C&B Enterprises, which was paid $9 per cubic yard. That company hired Amlee Transportation, which was paid $8 per cubic yard. Amlee hired Chris Hessler Inc, which received $7 per cubic yard. Hessler, in turn, hired Les Nirdlinger, a debris hauler from New Jersey, who was paid $3 per cubic yard.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13153520/

 

[Fallen]

Here's an example of how it worked: The Ashbritt company was paid $23 for every cubic yard of debris it removed. It in turn hired C&B Enterprises, which was paid $9 per cubic yard. That company hired Amlee Transportation, which was paid $8 per cubic yard. Amlee hired Chris Hessler Inc, which received $7 per cubic yard. Hessler, in turn, hired Les Nirdlinger, a debris hauler from New Jersey, who was paid $3 per cubic yard.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13153520/

As unbelievably stupid as that is, it does provide more people with more jobs

 

[gumbo]

As unbelievably stupid as that is, it does provide more people with more jobs

Collecting our money for doing nothing is not providing jobs.
The only one working is the company that is doing it for $3 a cubic yard, everyone else is just collecting money.

 

[fttrsbeerwench]

Daddy Gumbo, what is capitalism?

 

[jazz lady]

Somehow, it doesn't surprise me what's going on down there. The vultures have swooped in for the killing.

 

[gumbo]

Daddy Gumbo, what is capitalism?

Capitalism has nothing to do with it.
It's more like kick backs. There is no moron on that planet that would pay anyone $23 per cubic yard to haul debris.
And to a company that don't even have any heavy equipment.
Second, the waste business is now one of the largest and fastest-growing businesses in America. Waste haulers make really good money, and they kick some of it back into the political process. Politicians therefore curry favor with the waste industry. For example, when George Bush announced appointments to the President's Commission on Environmental Quality, the waste industry had three representatives out of 25: Browning Ferris Industries, or BFI, has William Ruckelshaus; and Waste Management, Inc. has two members from its board of directors: Dean Buntrock and Kathryn S. Fuller (a WMI board member but presently "on leave"). (NY TIMES 7/24/91, pg. A14.) No other industry comes close in terms of representation. The waste industry is among the most politically powerful, and politically favored, in America.

From
http://www.ejnet.org/rachel/rhwn268.htm

 

[vraiblonde]

How is this different than Pax River contractors? The government gets money to complete a job, they contract it out, and that contractor contracts out.

Someone pays your company a fee to do a job, the company in turn pays you to actually do it.

Home Depot pays Bell Nursery for plants, Bell contracts the growing of those plants out to Gude Brothers.

What's the big deal?

 

[SamSpade]

How is this different than Pax River contractors? The government gets money to complete a job, they contract it out, and that contractor contracts out.

Someone pays your company a fee to do a job, the company in turn pays you to actually do it.

Home Depot pays Bell Nursery for plants, Bell contracts the growing of those plants out to Gude Brothers.

What's the big deal?

Because unless I'm reading it wrong, it's being paid for with taxes.

Say you're hiring ME to mow your lawn, and I tell you it's gonna cost $200 bucks - and I sub-contract it out, pay someone else to weed-eat and someone else does the refuse removal, and so on.

Of course, if you'd had any brains, you'd pay the kids next door to do the same job for twenty bucks, because at the end of the day - they're doing it for that price anyway - I'm just pocketing the other 180, because you're a moron.

It's not that it goes on - it's that some idiot was willing to pay 200 bucks to mow a lawn when 20 would have been fine.

 

[gumbo]

Because unless I'm reading it wrong, it's being paid for with taxes.

Say you're hiring ME to mow your lawn, and I tell you it's gonna cost $200 bucks - and I sub-contract it out, pay someone else to weed-eat and someone else does the refuse removal, and so on.

Of course, if you'd had any brains, you'd pay the kids next door to do the same job for twenty bucks, because at the end of the day - they're doing it for that price anyway - I'm just pocketing the other 180, because you're a moron.

It's not that it goes on - it's that some idiot was willing to pay 200 bucks to mow a lawn when 20 would have been fine.

This is true, however with the Government and Government contrators there are no idiots and morons, just very smart thieves.
The only idiots and morons are the ones who go through life with blinders on.

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

Because unless I'm reading it wrong, it's being paid for with taxes.

Say you're hiring ME to mow your lawn, and I tell you it's gonna cost $200 bucks - and I sub-contract it out, pay someone else to weed-eat and someone else does the refuse removal, and so on.

Of course, if you'd had any brains, you'd pay the kids next door to do the same job for twenty bucks, because at the end of the day - they're doing it for that price anyway - I'm just pocketing the other 180, because you're a moron.

It's not that it goes on - it's that some idiot was willing to pay 200 bucks to mow a lawn when 20 would have been fine.

...where was this mythical kid next door that was gonna suddenly be capable of handling the job? Is the government supposed to say "Hey kid, git you a dump truck! We got some work for yeah!"

What then? Does this kid just suddenly know how to use a dump truck and where to take the debris and then get the 1,000's of friends necessary to get the job done?

Does he just knock on doors until he finds enough kids next door?

It does nothing short of frighten me that people's reaction is "They shouldn't get THAT much money!" Instead of "How do I get me some?"

Everyone is suddenly an expert at what the price SHOULD be to remove debris on this scale?

Do we now cut out everyone in the chain and just pay the last guy $3 a ton?
Yeah! That's it!

So, how long before enough people DON'T make money and won't get involved because they know the government will come along and say "Sorry dude, people feel you got paid too much. " And then what? The guy in Jersey says..."Well...looks like it's gonna be $23 a ton. Take it or leave it. No. Make it $50. I'm the only guy who can do it."

I know! How about we just make the government do it! Yeah! Uncle Sam's debris and hauling! Anyone wanna guess how much it's gonna cost per ton by the time the government hires all the people required to hire all the people required to hire all the people required to hire all the people to drive the trucks?

The idea of capitalism should INSPIRE you, not offend you. The remorseless, un-emotional discipline imposed by profit motive makes that ton cost $23.

Lord knows how much it would cost absent that. No one here seems to be in a rush to run down there and haul it.

 

[dck4shrt]

The idea of capitalism should INSPIRE you, not offend you. The remorseless, un-emotional discipline imposed by profit motive makes that ton cost $23.

Lord knows how much it would cost absent that. No one here seems to be in a rush to run down there and haul it.

I've made the same arguments to people who think they are getting ripped off by oil companies...if you don't like how much it costs, do it cheaper yourself, start your own company and go drill your own oil. If you think you can do it cheaper than $23/ton and make a profit, go bid on the contracts.

 

[SamSpade]

I'm sorry Larry, but I do think my analogy was perfect. The problem is that it's wasted money. Yeah, some resourceful guy found someone who'd haul it away for $3 a cubic yard. But $23? Hell, I'd do that myself with a pickup truck. Somebody had to know that was overpriced.

But, you know, we're talking the government. They're idiots. Tell them a hammer costs 250 bucks to make, and they're signing the papers. Meanwhile, you're buying them from Julio in the Phillipines for $2 a hammer.

You want to call it smart capitalism. Caveat emptor. Well Christ, they're spending *my* money. It behooves them to use their brains about it. If I give you 20 bucks to get me a beer, you'd better come back with *change*. 'Cause it's my money.

If it's YOUR money, tough noogies. Then it's your problem.

We had this problem a few years ago with our homeowners association. Turns out they were wasting money and raising fees. Hell they went so far as to designate our area a special tax district so they they could squeeze out even more money out of us. And they blew it all. The homeowners revolted. We found out they were shelling out tens of thousands of dollars for *estimates*. Tens of thousands for a tiny office computer network. Thousands of dollars to build storage facilities for industrial equipment they used a few weeks out of the year - that could be *rented* instead.

What did we do? We threw the bums out - and saved money.

Maybe not "let the buyer beware". More like "power to the people". Stop wasting tax dollars because you think you're not accountable.

 

[Larry Gude]

Perfect, huh?

I'm sorry Larry, but I do think my analogy was perfect. The problem is that it's wasted money. Yeah, some resourceful guy found someone who'd haul it away for $3 a cubic yard. But $23? Hell, I'd do that myself with a pickup truck. Somebody had to know that was overpriced.

But, you know, we're talking the government. They're idiots. Tell them a hammer costs 250 bucks to make, and they're signing the papers. Meanwhile, you're buying them from Julio in the Philippines for $2 a hammer.

You want to call it smart capitalism. Caveat emptor. Well Christ, they're spending *my* money. It behooves them to use their brains about it. If I give you 20 bucks to get me a beer, you'd better come back with *change*. 'Cause it's my money.

If it's YOUR money, tough noogies. Then it's your problem.

We had this problem a few years ago with our homeowners association. Turns out they were wasting money and raising fees. Hell they went so far as to designate our area a special tax district so they they could squeeze out even more money out of us. And they blew it all. The homeowners revolted. We found out they were shelling out tens of thousands of dollars for *estimates*. Tens of thousands for a tiny office computer network. Thousands of dollars to build storage facilities for industrial equipment they used a few weeks out of the year - that could be *rented* instead.

What did we do? We threw the bums out - and saved money.

Maybe not "let the buyer beware". More like "power to the people". Stop wasting tax dollars because you think you're not accountable.

...typical dump truck holds about 20 tons, so, at $3 a ton that's $60. They're probably using trailers, so, maybe double it, $120 for a load. How far to wherever it is that it is being dumped...say, what, 50 miles, 100 round trip?

Dump truck gets maybe 5 mpg or 30 gallons per load. Call it $3 a gallon or $90 in fuel, leaving $30 for the at least 2 hours to make a trip. Insurance? Probably $30 a day or so. Truck payment? Maintenance? Repairs? Pick up a nail in a tire?

Now, how about some money to cover the dumping fee unless someone is allowing them to put it somewhere for free. How about administration? Office space?

You'd do it for $23? Why aren't you? To busy making less money doing something else?

You think maybe out of that $23 a good many things are being paid for so that the guy getting $3 doesn't have as many expenses? You think maybe the $23 is paying for all sorts of things besides a dump truck rolling down the road? Loaders. On site staff. Permits.

You gonna compare a government hammer to a one in the Philippines? So, be the guy selling $2 hammers for $250. Then fill ALL of the requirements that the federal government demands as regards that hammer.

Is there waste? Sure. Is it perfect? No. Is oversight a good thing? Yes. But at the end of the day, you are right, we're talking about the government. But you are also wrong; they are not idiots. They have accountability up to and including having to answer for that $250 hammer.

You're analogy of the kid next door when we're talking about a company in Jersey is perfect? You think maybe that company in Jersey is the cheapest guy because of experience and equipment gained cleaning up the World Trade Towers? Think maybe they have a whole lot more experience and know how than the kid next door, the one who, incidentally, didn't get the job?

You're homeowners story is about fraud and you made them accountable. That's a good thing. Now, I'll wait to hear how much it should cost to move debris and everything associated with it seeings how you have this knowledge of what is too much.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ps...

...you're gonna haul it for $23 a ton in a pick up truck? The typical pick up is 1/2 ton. Some are 3/4. Let's call it a 1 ton to make this easy.

You're willing to load, move and unload 1 ton of debris for $23?

 

[Ken King]

...typical dump truck holds about 20 tons, so, at $3 a ton that's $60. They're probably using trailers, so, maybe double it, $120 for a load. How far to wherever it is that it is being dumped...say, what, 50 miles, 100 round trip?

Dump truck gets maybe 5 mpg or 30 gallons per load. Call it $3 a gallon or $90 in fuel, leaving $30 for the at least 2 hours to make a trip. Insurance? Probably $30 a day or so. Truck payment? Maintenance? Repairs? Pick up a nail in a tire?

Solid refuse (doing some quick research, yeah vraiblonde I know ) averages out to about 3.23 cubic yards per ton, so if it was a 20 ton truck they could haul about 67 cubic yards of debris for a fee of $201 a truck load, double it for the larger hauler and you're at $402 a load. They don't have to load it or do anything other than haul and dump it while the lead company has to get the loaders and operators, manage the clean up and logistics, comply with the codes, and obtain the necessary permits.

Ever notice how management costs more then labor? Seems everyone is making out on the deal and there might not be anything irregular about it at all.

 

[Larry Gude]

My bad...

Solid refuse (doing some quick research, yeah vraiblonde I know ) averages out to about 3.23 cubic yards per ton, so if it was a 20 ton truck they could haul about 67 cubic yards of debris for a fee of $201 a truck load, double it for the larger hauler and you're at $402 a load. They don't have to load it or do anything other than haul and dump it while the lead company has to get the loaders and operators, manage the clean up and logistics, comply with the codes, and obtain the necessary permits.

Ever notice how management costs more then labor? Seems everyone is making out on the deal and there might not be anything irregular about it at all.

...I read yard and thought ton.

It's the reflex to see criminal intent that I object to. Goddman, everyone knows they could do it cheaper, go do it and don't forget the myriad things that go into a given job as well.

 

[Ken King]

...I read yard and thought ton.

It's the reflex to see criminal intent that I object to. Goddman, everyone knows they could do it cheaper, go do it and don't forget the myriad things that go into a given job as well.

That's what I figured and was just helping you get it right (or closer to right).

I imagine just doing flow control and pickup assignments would be a major headache, same with getting the other functions and equipment for this type of job. Then when you deal with the "government regulators, permit and fee collectors, this is one major undertaking a lot bigger then Manuel and Juan with the 63 Ford pick-up, their buddies, and a bunch of shovels.

What I wonder is where is all of this crap going? Down to the docks for loading on to barges being shipped out or somewhere else like a super landfill? The story doesn't even hint about that and I suspect that there still might be some human remains mixed in with all that they're dealing with and probably other toxic/caustic/hazardous stuff too. I just can't imagine the magnitude of the effort and the layers of regulation and oversight being dealt with that would make the $23 a cubic yard fee reasonable if we knew the full story.

 

[Pete]

...I read yard and thought ton.

It's the reflex to see criminal intent that I object to. Goddman, everyone knows they could do it cheaper, go do it and don't forget the myriad things that go into a given job as well.

I think the crux of the deal is appearance that somehow the guy at the end of the chain making $3 a ton is prevented from going direct to the source and bidding a reasonable rate or else he would do it, capitalism at its best. It is the barrier to him bidding and winning that is suspicious, IE Graft, mob, nepotism, or some other unsavory behavior that greases the palms of multiple layers overhead.

 

[Pete]

How is this different than Pax River contractors? The government gets money to complete a job, they contract it out, and that contractor contracts out.

Someone pays your company a fee to do a job, the company in turn pays you to actually do it.

Home Depot pays Bell Nursery for plants, Bell contracts the growing of those plants out to Gude Brothers.

What's the big deal?

Thats not exactly how it works. The government awards broad contracts that the winner may have to sub out. Of course as the winner they get a pass through on the sub. The government also strictly goverens the profit you can make on one of their contracts. Oh and "contract" is a loose term, the government can cancel and pull the money back at any time, for no reason at all.

 

[Ken King]

I think the crux of the deal is appearance that somehow the guy at the end of the chain making $3 a ton is prevented from going direct to the source and bidding a reasonable rate or else he would do it, capitalism at its best. It is the barrier to him bidding and winning that is suspicious, IE Graft, mob, nepotism, or some other unsavory behavior that greases the palms of multiple layers overhead.

That's probably because they bid the entire job as a single venture versus piece-mealing it out by each and every task of the entire project.