More gross over spending.

[Pete]

That's probably because they bid the entire job as a single venture versus piece-mealing it out by each and every task of the entire project.

Without a doubt, say so here.

It also says that its contract with the Army Corps involved much more than simply hauling debris. As project manager, the company was also responsible for loading the debris trucks, managing the tremendous logistical operations of the debris-removal operation and providing hundreds of workers to manage the cleanup efforts.

The way the government does contract is goofy sometimes. They no doubt put out the overall logistics contract for cleanup, the company won it, then subbed out portions, the debris removal being one of them. That many layers of subs is suspicious as is the distribution of the money, AND it is La.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

What I wonder is where is all of this crap going? .

...I imagine mulch has been cheaper and more plentiful in the region this year...and some new and interesting colors and scents as well...

 

[Ken King]

...I imagine mulch has been cheaper and more plentiful in the region this year...and some new and interesting colors and scents as well...

I bet.

And it wouldn't surprise me if the Army Corp of Engineers isn't paying for some of that same debris to use to build/re-enforce the levies. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? Paying for it twice.

 

[gumbo]

Trash dump bed http://www.ledwell.com/dump/trash_dump.htm


35 cubic yards per load times $23= $805 times 5 runs a day=$4025
Debris is debris it could be broke pieces of lumber,leaves, paper, siding or what ever.
Bottom line is someone is doing the job for $3 per cubic yard.
35 cubic yards per load times $3= $105 times 5 runs per day $525
Apparently the company that is based out of New Jersey is making money at cleaning this debris up at $3 per cubic yard or they wouldn't be down there doing it.
$4025
-$ 525
----------
+$3500

So someone is pocketing $3500 a day per dump truck.
Now lets just say they have 20 dump trucks working a day.
Wow thats $70,000 per day going into the pockets of those doing nothing.

Lets' not forget that the originally company that got the contract, don't own one single piece of heavy equipment.

$70,000 times 30 days= $2,100,000 and how many years do they estimate this will take?
This is a lot of money for organizing a sham.
Let's just call it what it is.. Money Laundering.
Exchange it through bunch of hands enough and no one sees sheot.

Any business owner or corporation manger will shop around for the best deal.
But noooo! Not our Government,they shop around for the highest price so it can get subbed down a bunch of times.
The reason it has to be bid high and go through a bunch of subs is because there are many hands that need to be greased.
So therefore it needs to make many transactions.
This sheot goes on with every Government contract. Sub ,sub ,sub and the guy's that are doing the actual work still make damn good money.

 

[gumbo]

.

Home Depot pays Bell Nursery for plants, Bell contracts the growing of those plants out to Gude Brothers.

What's the big deal?

And who is getting paid for doing nothing ?

 

[Larry Gude]

See we're just going to leave out the rest of the costs?

Trash dump bed http://www.ledwell.com/dump/trash_dump.htm


35 cubic yards per load times $23= $805 times 5 runs a day=$4025
Debris is debris it could be broke pieces of lumber,leaves, paper, siding or what ever.
Bottom line is someone is doing the job for $3 per cubic yard.
35 cubic yards per load times $3= $105 times 5 runs per day $525
Apparently the company that is based out of New Jersey is making money at cleaning this debris up at $3 per cubic yard or they wouldn't be down there doing it.
$4025
-$ 525
----------
+$3500

So someone is pocketing $3500 a day per dump truck.
Now lets just say they have 20 dump trucks working a day.
Wow thats $70,000 per day going into the pockets of those doing nothing.

Lets' not forget that the originally company that got the contract, don't own one single piece of heavy equipment.

$70,000 times 30 days= $2,100,000 and how many years do they estimate this will take?
This is a lot of money for organizing a sham.
Let's just call it what it is.. Money Laundering.
Exchange it through bunch of hands enough and no one sees sheot.

Any business owner or corporation manger will shop around for the best deal.
But noooo! Not our Government,they shop around for the highest price so it can get subbed down a bunch of times.
The reason it has to be bid high and go through a bunch of subs is because there are many hands that need to be greased.
So therefore it needs to make many transactions.
This sheot goes on with every Government contract. Sub ,sub ,sub and the guy's that are doing the actual work still make damn good money.

The fuel? The insurance? the dumping fees? The cost for loading? ALL administration costs? Whatever time, people, offices and all those associated costs, it took to get in position to take advantage of the opportunity? When you show me that someone, a person, is putting $3,500 per load, pure profit, in their pocket, then we have an issue.

From the story;

Ashbritt acknowledges it does not own any trucks to haul debris, but insists it typically doesn’t allow layers of subcontractors. It also says that its contract with the Army Corps involved much more than simply hauling debris. As project manager, the company was also responsible for loading the debris trucks, managing the tremendous logistical operations of the debris-removal operation and providing hundreds of workers to manage the cleanup efforts

So the federal government is to be operated as a for profit enterprise?

As I have said, I'm all for oversight. If the law was broken, then punish people. If collusion and manipulation was involved, prove it and punish them. I will not reflexively every time someone makes money.

 

[bcp]

Thought this was going to be a welfare thread,, not an affirmative action thread.

carry on.

 

[SamSpade]

As I have said, I'm all for oversight. If the law was broken, then punish people. If collusion and manipulation was involved, prove it and punish them. I will not reflexively every time someone makes money.

Nor am I going to defend waste as capitalism. I'm hardly a bleeding heart liberal, Larry.

I work for the government, and we can't so much as buy a pamphlet without proving it's the cheapest price we can get. I don't know what other agencies do, but we have to fill out a pile of paperwork documenting several sources before we can even make a purchase.

Even THEN - we waste money, because from time to time we buy things - cheaply - that we never use. We all snicker and say "so what? It's just Larry Gude's taxes! Next time, let's just BURN it!".

Just kidding. Really.

I can't really believe it's defensible for a company that doesn't haul the debris, doesn't coordinate the effort, doesn't supervise the work - doesn't actually own a single truck - was able to make a bid on it, and the person who actually did the work did it for a tenth of the cost.

This isn't "president of a manufacturing firm" delegating work to low skilled employees. There's no evidence these schmucks did anything but pay someone else. Like I said, it's me charging you 200 bucks to mow your lawn, and I don't even own a lanwmower or know where you live.

I don't know if laws were broken, but I don't have to be a lawyer or judge to know that too much money is being spent to do too little.

I'm sure that over the past fifty years, money has been wasted trying to shore up those levees and protect New Orleans. It cost us all millions to maintain something that did a p!ss-poor job. From your line of reasoning, that was money well spent, because it's just clever entrepreneurs and great capitalism. Money isn't "squandered" - it's just very cleverly earned.

 

[SamSpade]

When you show me that someone, a person, is putting $3,500 per load, pure profit, in their pocket, then we have an issue.

I actually worked for a guy who DID do something like that, for years. Hauled away debris for profit. His cost? The price of gas to haul it to the incinerator - which cost nothing because they incinerated trash to make electricity.

He also hauled tons of scrap metal - everything from pipes, hot water heaters and air conditioning units - for money. His cost? Lunch and gas. Made two dozen trips a day. They paid him to take it away, and someone paid him to get the metal.

I mean, he COULD have paid some administrative staff to track it all - but that would have been stupid. It's trash for pete's sake - how much overhead do you need?

 

[Larry Gude]

How many dollars...

I work for the government, and we can't so much as buy a pamphlet without proving it's the cheapest price we can get. I don't know what other agencies do, but we have to fill out a pile of paperwork documenting several sources before we can even make a purchase.

...does THAT waste? So, the 'cheapest' pamphlet costs $1 instead of $2 at the local office supply but you got paid $3 to see and prove and document that the actual price paid was the 'cheapest'?

Even THEN - we waste money, because from time to time we buy things - cheaply - that we never use. We all snicker and say "so what? It's just Larry Gude's taxes! Next time, let's just BURN it!".

How to say this nicely... SO WHAT? Burn it. Buy some more. If it reaches the point where I see an opportunity, I'll see if I can't spend my time getting a piece of the pie instead of trying to save myself the few pennies in taxes that might be my share.

Nor am I going to defend waste as capitalism

This is the thing I don't know why people don't innately understand. Capitalism is, by definition, waste. People MAKE money, PROFIT, over what something may or may not actually cost by being in the right place at the right time. By having a great idea. By being efficient managers of resources. By having a bigger bucket when the tap is running free.

People see a sale at the store and what do they do? They buy more of it to capitalize on the opportunity. Do they shed a tear that the store isn't getting their usual price? Do they consider or care for one second WHY the price is reduced? Are they afraid that the store might not be making enough profit to stay in business? No, but they sure as hell react to the other half of the equation; a higher price.

I can't really believe it's defensible for a company that doesn't haul the debris, doesn't coordinate the effort, doesn't supervise the work - doesn't actually own a single truck - was able to make a bid on it, and the person who actually did the work did it for a tenth of the cost.

Great. I can't believe they need to defend making money. Have you got your pick up truck ready to roll? Are you packed and ready to get to work? Go get that $23 a yard. Go take advantage, capitalize, on the opportunity.

When someone surfaces who can credibly claim they were denied their opportunity to bid and compete for this work, I'll listen. When it is shown that the rules were broken, punish the rules breakers and/or fix the rules.

There's no evidence these schmucks did anything but pay someone else. Like I said, it's me charging you 200 bucks to mow your lawn, and I don't even own a lawn mower or know where you live.

Schmucks? Schmucks? I'd call them pretty smart ####ers. You really need to find a better analogy than the yard boy. I did not and will not pay you $200 to cut my grass.

I did, however, pay a company $220 a month to cut it and then THEY subcontracted it out to some guys who didn't do a very good job. Now, I'm paying $200 a month to another guy who used to work for the other guy and he does a hell of a job, cheaper. I AM NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

I don't have umpteen layers of people over my head who need proof that ALL the rules were followed, all the i's dotted and t's crossed. Bureaucracies are not nor ever will be efficient. That is NOT their role nor their function.

don't know if laws were broken, but I don't have to be a lawyer or judge to know that too much money is being spent to do too little.

Then why in the hell aren't you using your expertise to go get you some contracts and make some money instead of burning up all my unused stationary????

From your line of reasoning, that was money well spent, because it's just clever entrepreneurs and great capitalism. Money isn't "squandered" - it's just very cleverly earned

That's not fair and that is not accurate to what I am saying. How many times to I have to say 'enforce the rules'? Fraud and corruption are one thing. Taking advantage is another.

This cleanup is a once in a great while event that could happen anywhere. There can not be a company, standing buy, all efficient and ready to roll, just waiting for a storm of this magnitude. And waiting...and waiting...for 40 years.

A kid selling lemonade on a hot sunny day when there is a parade in front of his house will sell more and charge more than he will the next day when it's raining and the crowd is gone.

That kid sent one pal to go get more lemons. Another to get ice. Another for cups and paid them all a fraction of what he is getting per cup. Why? He's the one running the show. He's the one with the prime location this particular time. He's the one who got mom and dad to say OK. He's the one who got it done.


How about your job? Are you making absolutely the lowest possible wage that can be had for what you do? I bet I could burn up stationary cheaper than you. I bet I could pay some kid to do it and make money off of him. I bet he could pay an illegal to do it and make money of of HIM and I GAURANTEE YOU illegals are working on the New Orleans clean up.

Or, maybe, you just happen to have the experience, the training and the ability to do what you do better than me? Maybe you are close enough? Know the right people? Right place, right time? Whatever.


I'd rather my taxes go to trash removal at $23 a ton, WITH PROPER oversight, with rules being followed AND private enterprise making a #### load of money than paying a dime for some able person sitting on their azz at home.

At least the trash is getting removed.

 

[Larry Gude]

And the answer is...

I actually worked for a guy who DID do something like that, for years. Hauled away debris for profit. His cost? The price of gas to haul it to the incinerator - which cost nothing because they incinerated trash to make electricity.

He also hauled tons of scrap metal - everything from pipes, hot water heaters and air conditioning units - for money. His cost? Lunch and gas. Made two dozen trips a day. They paid him to take it away, and someone paid him to get the metal.

I mean, he COULD have paid some administrative staff to track it all - but that would have been stupid. It's trash for pete's sake - how much overhead do you need?

...$23 a yard until you prove that the rules were broken and the oversight failed.

 

[SamSpade]

...At least the trash is getting removed.

Geez, Larry - you're awful quiet today.

Does it follow then, that as long as the trash is being removed, then the price doesn't matter? That it doesn't matter how much people tell the government they'll haul it away for - because money is no object?

It's just my opinion that a 766% markup from the bottom to the top is wasteful. How many dollars per cubic yard *would* make it wasteful? 50? 100? I mean, I see your point, but I think the difference of opinion lies in, just how much money should the government throw at the problem before it's no longer being responsible? 500 per cubic yard?

You pay someone 220 dollars a month - do the people they subcontract to do it for 28 dollars a month (the equivalent markup)? If they do, do you feel their services would be worth the 192 dollars they pocket to hire someone to actually do the work?

Would you pay someone 150 bucks to do as good a job? 500? Isn't that what we expect government to do - try at least, to get a good deal?

(I'm not totally following your stationEry line - when I say "we", I mean, folks whose job it is to make purchases - not me personally - and I mentioned a pamphlet because we buy computers, software, books etc, but I can't get a 20-page JavaScript reference guide without someone going through the numbers).

You know, it's not as though we haven't BOTH discussed the waste that has been squandered in New Orleans for the past 50 some years.

I just think that 10-20% is good capitalism. 100% is smart entrepreneurs jumping in on a good thing. 700% and the guy spending the cash ought to be canned. It's not as though government is a stranger to wasteful spending.

 

[SamSpade]

...$23 a yard until you prove that the rules were broken and the oversight failed.

Heck, why stop at 23? There'd be nothing legally wrong with paying them 100, then, right? Or 500.

There's nothing legally wrong with me asking the government for ten times my salary to do what I already do.

There's something wrong with the moron who says, sure Sam, we'll pay you anything you want. Set the price, we'll pay it.

 

[Larry Gude]

If that's the way...

Heck, why stop at 23? There'd be nothing legally wrong with paying them 100, then, right? Or 500.

There's nothing legally wrong with me asking the government for ten times my salary to do what I already do.

There's something wrong with the moron who says, sure Sam, we'll pay you anything you want. Set the price, we'll pay it.

..you want to look at it.

So, you are being paid the proper amount, yes? No one would object to your salary for what you do, yes?

 

[Ken King]

Sam, the last guy is just the hauler, that's it. There are many more levels to the operation then just the final phase. You seem to be having a problem seeing that. The issue I would have based on the story is with C&B Enterprises, Amlee Transportation, each making a buck a yard, and Chris Hessler Inc making 4 bucks a yard for passing the buck.

 

[SamSpade]

..you want to look at it.

So, you are being paid the proper amount, yes? No one would object to your salary for what you do, yes?

Worth every penny, until someone can prove it's illegal...

Admit it, Larry, you LOVE having me disagree with you on stuff. It gets you awake in the morning.

 

[SamSpade]

Sam, the last guy is just the hauler, that's it. There are many more levels to the operation then just the final phase. You seem to be having a problem seeing that. The issue I would have based on the story is with C&B Enterprises, Amlee Transportation, each making a buck a yard, and Chris Hessler Inc making 4 bucks a yard for passing the buck.

If that's how you see it. As in the example I mentioned, when you're hauling trash, I can understand some overhead - but you don't need 10 chiefs to supervise one Indian. You have a point that in the first line of the tier, the last line is invisible - but if those two are suspect - why couldn't the first one hire the last guy?

(I'm reminded of something I think I read in a Zig Ziglar book once - about a boss who has a bad day and takes it out on his employees - and the supervisor takes it out on his staff - who goes home and takes it out on his wife - who takes it out on the oldest kid - who takes it out on his little brother - who takes it out on the cat by kicking it across the room. Why doesn't the boss just kick the cat in the first place, and save everyone from having a bad day?)

And I'd still ask the same question. 23 a yard when the hauling is done for 3. How much would be exorbitant?

I'm questioning the markup, as well, for being attributable to other costs. I didn't see other costs coming into play - only that of the hauler. It reminds me of when I read the budget of my former homeowner's association's staff, whose primary task every year was to collect the fees that were owed to it. A tiny fraction of the budget actually paid the work we wanted done - about 80% was spent to support a large staff whose job it was to get my money. They bought expensive computers to track the money they collected from me. They hired legal experts to follow up on those who wouldn't pay. Heck, if they never worked on the roads at all, all we were doing was paying them to charge us money! Question: why don't I just fire the administration staff, and hire the road crew guys directly?

 

[Larry Gude]

Look...

Does it follow then, that as long as the trash is being removed, then the price doesn't matter? That it doesn't matter how much people tell the government they'll haul it away for - because money is no object?

...you are not a capitalist or you wouldn't draw that conclusion. Money IS the SOLE object. What I see is a process that was competed for and the people in position to take advantage of the opportunity are, hopefully, making a profit. Whatever they are doing, they won. I think if the price was $100 a yard, someone else may have won. You haven't left town with your pick up, so, $23 must not be of any interest to you.

A job pays what it pays. There are myriad things that go into that figure which you and gumbo don't seem to care about. That's fine. You don't have to. Let's start the investigations. Let's appoint independent counsels. Let's find some malfeasance based on your opinion that this is all wrong. Maybe it is.

Until evidence of wrong doing surfaces, I KNOW that $23 is the price. Not $100. Not infinity. I know that, for whatever reasons, these folks beat out their competitors and won the job. My ONLY concern is did someone break the law or the rules?

but I think the difference of opinion lies in, just how much money should the government throw at the problem before it's no longer being responsible? 500 per cubic yard?

You ask a question that has already been answered; $23 a yard and you object. A seven fold market up is not an accurate statement. The guys at the top are paying for more than $3 a yard trucking fees. They are not getting paid for simply existing.

You pay someone 220 dollars a month - do the people they subcontract to do it for 28 dollars a month (the equivalent markup)? If they do, do you feel their services would be worth the 192 dollars they pocket to hire someone to actually do the work?

I have no idea how to communicate with you. You are stuck on MY yard, a private citizen who is in a far better position to evaluate how much I am willing to pay to have my yard cut. If my guy could get someone to do it for $28 he would but he can't because no one will do it for $28. Someone IS willing to run their trucks for $3 a yard.

If the federal government was tasked with cutting my grass, how much you wanna guess it would cost?

Would you pay someone 150 bucks to do as good a job? 500? Isn't that what we expect government to do - try at least, to get a good deal?

THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A BUSINESS NOR A CITIZEN. Did someone who bid less to to do the clean up NOT get the contract? Did that happen? Did someone cheat? Lie? Steal? We haven't even begun to scratch the surface of how much government money was spent long before the cleanup contracts even became reality, like the money and time spent for you to prove you got the cheapest price on binders or whatever. You or I or a business would NEVER do it the way the government does. It's apples and oranges.

I'm not totally following your stationEry line - when I say "we", I mean, folks whose job it is to make purchases - not me personally - and I mentioned a pamphlet because we buy computers, software, books etc, but I can't get a 20-page JavaScript reference guide without someone going through the numbers).

You, me, whomever. The point is someone is paid to spend a whole bunch of time and money and effort to follow the procurement rules for accountability purposes that end up being as or even more wasteful.

Wanna end that? Overnight? Give you and your co-workers and your supervisors a profit motive to do it cheaper, better, faster. Then YOU can deal with the SamSpades of the world #####ing that YOU and your team are screwing the public because 10 of you got $100,000 bonus' while saving the people $2,000,000 in the process. I'd love to watch you argue that with yourself.

You know, it's not as though we haven't BOTH discussed the waste that has been squandered in New Orleans for the past 50 some years.

From what we know of New Orleans, we're talking about money that was not spent on what it was intended for; ongoing, institutionalized graft. The debris IS getting removed. Maybe there is cheating going on? Whether there is or not, it is knowable if a company from Jersey was illegally prohibited from even bidding on the original contract. Maybe some of that $23 is going to people to make sure someone won it? Illegality and capitalism are not synonymous.

just think that 10-20% is good capitalism. 100% is smart entrepreneurs jumping in on a good thing. 700% and the guy spending the cash ought to be canned. It's not as though government is a stranger to wasteful spending.[/

Again with the 700%. Are they putting a 700% profit in their pockets? No. They are loading the trucks, dealing with the logistics, permits etc, etc, etc, and hiring other personnel.

People don't get out of bed in the morning motivated to come up with a great idea or out work and/or out think the next guy so that they can earn what YOU approve of. Didn't you ever have a lemonade stand? Didn't the thought of making $20 ever excite you because you only had a dollar?

 

[Larry Gude]

Sam...

Worth every penny, until someone can prove it's illegal...

Admit it, Larry, you LOVE having me disagree with you on stuff. It gets you awake in the morning.

I admit it, I love it, but it does not get me awake. I wake up every day with a profit movite dancing in my head so I can afford to squabble with you.

 

[Larry Gude]

Sam...

Why doesn't the boss just kick the cat in the first place, and save everyone from having a bad day?)

Because that is not how it works.

And I'd still ask the same question. 23 a yard when the hauling is done for 3. How much would be exorbitant?

Answer: $23.01