My Own Sermon...

andwhat

Member
Pmoney, you still don't escape it b/c if you say that satan is the foundation of all evil, your stuck with God created satan and there forefore if a=b and b=c, then a=c and god still created evil and so I you can still blame him. Namely God created stan, stan created evil, therfore god created evil and is the foundaiton of all evil in the world. thats part of the problem I have is that this isn't answered or addressed.
 

AnonymousPenguin

Lead Penguin
and,

I am enjoying reading your logical arguments... now I see that it comes from the philosophy background...where they actually teach you how to make a logical argument...

Man, if only, everyone were required to take a logic course or something... we could throw out all these b.s arguments...that follow no proper logic...
Then, there would be more agreement and understanding.
 

PmoneyandTT

New Member
Well Im sure this won't answer your question either.. God said there can only be one God - and thats him.. When Luficer wanted to be like God - it was a sin "Pride" so he was thrown out of heaven.. Satan became bitter - so since he hates God so much - and God loves us so much - what better way to get back at God then through us.. Yes God created Angels - but like us they have free will.. I don't know why people think God is this awful being.. He lets us make choices.. He wants us to serve him with our hearts.. Lucifer made a choice - There can only be one God - Satan is not a god - he is a spirit.. Who hates all of us - and especially God.. Did you ever read the story about satan trying to tempt Jesus.. Telling him he could give him dominion over the earth.. How are you going to give something to someone if it doesn't even belong to you.. Satan has a way of making things look a certain way.. Luficer created what he is now.
 

Jimmyrich

Member
TT,
I think that andwhat's question is deeper than that though. He's not asking for what you think Satan IS, and similarly, he's not suggesting that Satan IS God. What he's saying is that if God CREATED everything in the universe, including the Angels, regardless of free will or what have you, he still CREATED the Angel Lucifer.  So since lucifer CHOSE to become the embodiment of evil, he was STILL a creation of God. Thus, through the laws of logic, God CREATED Evil.  It doesn' t matter that Satan uses manipulation and deciet. It doesn't matter that he tempted Jesus. These are all irrelevant points. Again, the spewing forth of wrote-memorization to either a)avoid answering the question or b)cover up a lack of understanding abou the question itself.
You claimed that you can't blame God for evil. Well, even if you allow for the existance of your satan, you can still blame God.  I, however, choose to blame MAN for both. But that's neither here nor there with you I suppose...
 

andwhat

Member
Pmoney, i'm not trying to say that God is this awful being but if God loves us all and wants all of us to be saved and wiht him, then why would he give us free will when he knows some will choose not to follow him? Why wouldn't he just have all of us believe and be saved and then we don't have to go through all of this. I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't escape the fact that logically god created evil.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Jimmy and andwhat:

NOW you're having a discussion!  Let this non-believer volley back:

God also gave man free will so that they could come to Him with a pure heart, not just because He <i>made</i> them behave.  There's no satisfaction in just having a bunch of syncophants around.  Lucifer exercised <i>his</i> free will by turning to the "dark side".  So God didn't <i>create</i> evil so much as He allowed the choice of <i>becoming</i> evil.  That's why there's so many bad people around - just exercising their God-given free will.

In my quest, I've asked a lot of questions and been very fortunate to have wise and knowledgeable people who would explain their beliefs to me.
 

andwhat

Member
blonde, glad to see you're firing back at us. I undesrtand your argumetn that God simply allowed eveil, but if god created everything, then God created evil. This still doesn't answer where it originally came from. It answers why we have it now, but where's the start.
As for the free will argument, good job with the open heart, but I'm worried that many people don't come to God with an open heart but rather out of fear. I read Hessien's post on the what happened to the old time church forum and when he said what happened to the fear of God being taught i couldn't help but to think of this.As for god doesn't want a bunch of synchopaths just to follow him, I'd have to say that if the endgame is either everlasting joy or everlasting damnation the stakes are pretty damn high and if you love someone that much (as god supposedly loves all of us) how could you possibly let someone make that choice. Its kinda like your friend about to jump off of a bridge. If you love them, then you're going to do everything you can to stop them, you're not going to leave it up to their own free will.
 

Frank

Chairman of the Board
Dee Jay,

You know that I was once a member of an ultra-fundamentalist group. I even quit a job in hopes of being sent out as a missionary. Read the Bible many times, and tons of sermons, ante-Nicene writers, books and various material. And one thing I cannot grasp about free will. And that is, the consequences God has for those who choose not to do as he asks.

Concepts such as grace notwithstanding, the bottom line comes down to : do this and you're ok - do that, and I'll let you suffer horribly forever and ever. But hey, it IS your choice.

Now if a *human* being did that, we'd call him some kind of psychopath, a nut case. I mean, do you REALLY have a choice?

I mean, how would you feel if I told you, agree with me, and everything is cool. *Disagree* with me, and I'll (long list of horrible tortures that I won't delineate). But hey, it's your choice.

Now if we think people are crazy for doing this, why is it normal for God, who is love, to do this?

My only thought is that somehow, there MUST be merit in doing good, and goodness, for its OWN sake, but I've actually found that most of the time, it's just damned hard, and there's no reward. (None of that, reward will be great in heaven - that goes back to my first point).

What do y'all think?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I was wondering when you'd join us, Frank!

That's one of the many reasons I came to the conclusion that there is no "God", as described by the religious people.  I'm not a faith-based person - I have to see to believe.  That said, I respect anyone's religious beliefs that don't include human sacrifice.

I don't find it hard to be "good" and, Frank, I suspect you don't either - not really.  I mean, do you <i>want</i> to kill?  Do drugs?  Lie?  Cheat? Steal?  Beat your cats?  (Okay, leave off that last one...) So how hard is it to avoid those activities?  For me, not very hard at all.  And it's not because some imaginary being is standing over me - it's because I don't feel good about myself when I do bad things.  I don't need God to drop the hammer on me - I'll do it to myself just fine.

I think the damnation you get when you sin is self-inflicted, as is the salvation when you act right.  But you still have a choice.
 

Frank

Chairman of the Board
Dee Jay, if you've ever been fundamentalist, you must then know that the call for personal holiness - being "good" - goes WAY past the 'big' sins. It calls for a life of service, unselfishness and humility. There are the other scriptures - such as, anyone who knows the good he ought to do, and doesn't do it, sins. Anything that doesn't proceed from faith, is sin. Be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect. Jesus even referred to his OWN followers as 'evil' ("if you, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children...").

And there's other - for one thing, the whole sex thing. (Honestly, I wish people would just say, hey, I disagree with the Bible, than try to claim the Bible says this or that is "ok".) There's the scripture that says that anyone who doesn't love his brother is a murderer. And to be honest - if you don't give your employer the very best you can do, all the time - you're a thief. You're stealing from them.

I think being good enough to stay out of jail is pretty damned easy. I think being good enough to be a great Christian role model is about the hardest thing there is. And - well, back to my previous point - God rewards one, but damns the other - it still doesn't seem like a free choice.
 

Jimmyrich

Member
Frank,

I doesn't seem like a free choice; you're right.  I suspect this is why many sociologists subscribe to theories that suggest that we have no "free will" of our own anyway.  Our actions are determined by genetic and environmental factors (nature AND nurture) and, thus, are not our own choices to make...but I'm getting a bit off topic.
I wholeheartedly agree that God's logic there seems to be faulty. "Here are your choices: make the right one and you will be granted heaven. Make the wrong; hell. Oh, and by the way, here are some easily misinterpreted laws brought to you by men, whom I have created to be flawed, and I'm gonna pretty much send you no physical sign of my existance for the next 2000+years.  Oh and if you're unfortunate enough to not really be shown these rules, well, it breaks my heart, but you're going to hell as well. Oh and it really makes me sad when people don't obey me. Or angy. Depends on the circumstances.  Well, good luck!"

I just think that God seems like this flawed parent here.  Certainly not an "all-powerful-all-knowing" diety.  Now, I'm not saying there isn't SOME sort of a God-esque thing out there beyond my human comprehension. But that's just the point. Anything with that amount of power and scope would be beyond human conception anyway so why bother and figure out what "it" wants or what "pisses it off"?  Live by the rules of society--social contracts--and society will evolve.  Allow for changes in ways of thinking and doing things. That's the only thing thats ever advanced our society. Not regressing into fundamentalist views and never changing anything...
Well, ok, I'm off my soapbox now...you're right, TT...sometimes it just feels like your time...
 

andwhat

Member
Jimmy and Frank, great job. I have one to add though Jimmy, I, God will determine your fate for the rest of eternity on what you do in roughly 70 years (if you are lucky to live that long) What kind of shaft is that?
 
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