##### needed in coming year

[pixiegirl]

What's your point? In the last hundred years several breeds have been recognized, The Dobermann, the GSD, the Malinois... the list is pretty long. Fact is the dog has a type, and fits the same standard their progeny fit in the 1800's. The Presa isn't recognized by the AKC, but has been bred to a standard and type for over a century. So what?

And the fact that APBT's are so commonly bred irresponsibly supports my entire point... Look what it's done to the breed!

My point was that it was a terrible example. You're venturing way off the path of your original point. Your point about APBTs isn't good either since there is nothing wrong with the common breed, few health problems, temperment supports what they were originally bred to do, etc. The problem with APBTs is the PEOPLE that exploit their natural capabilities them not in the breeding. They are in fact some of the healthiest "pure" breed dogs. "Pure" bred being totally ridiculous in itself when talking about them or ABs.

 

[DosGattos]

Love the hunting poodles!! Absolutely love them.

 

[thatguy]

The good breeders do sell Bullies as hog dogs, Dobes as guardians, Labs as hunters. No crap almost all dogs are sold as pets. That's what I've been railing against. That is what is destroying the breeds, because of lousy breeding programs by 'pet' breeders who simply pump 'em out without thought. My point to you is that the same think will happen to the designer breeds if things continue as they are. I know I can't change it, but I'm not gonna sit back and just watch it happen either.

As for the ones held as pets not having a clue, I beg to differ. I've adopted a few that were held as pets initially, and even abused to the point of breaking them mentally, and with a little training and the right treatment they bounce right back.

Cases in point... Caber, adopted at 2 years old, from abusive 'pet' home. At age of 4 with less than a years training took 3rd in first protection dog trial. Later served as a security patrol dog, making several 'detentions' and several successful building searches. 4 world championship invitations.
<object width="320" height="240" ><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://www.facebook.com/v/1031563362808" /><embed src="http://www.facebook.com/v/1031563362808" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="240"></embed></object>

Harley was adopted after spending the first two years of his life literally stuffed inside a crate. Eric was a Yugoslav import w/ multiple working titles.

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The difference between the three dogs is that Eric took no work at all compared to the other two. He just took to it.

Anyway, I'm not saying that your dog shouldn't have been bred. I'm saying it's lousy that so many breeders breed for the wrong reason. Why you would even argue that...

i am simply arguing that YOU DONT KNOW, nor should you tell others, what the "right" reason to breed is.
If you choose to breed your pure bred for money you are more in the wrong than a BYB who has a mutt with excellent "pet" qualities and breeds it for the sake of producing good quality pets.

you do understand that you could have trained a mixed breed dog with similar success, right?

case in point, i trained a lab/GSHP to be a frisbee dog, she certainly isn't the typical agility/frisbee dog breed, but she was a freak with a frisbee. training says little about the breed.

 

[vraiblonde]

Well, Suz', I think you'll have any problem finding #####es around here

 

[pixiegirl]

Well, Suz', I think you'll have any problem finding #####es around here

:giggle: You're full of it today. I may just have to bring you an ice cream cake.

 

[ewashkow]

case in point, i trained a lab/GSHP to be a frisbee dog, she certainly isn't the typical agility/frisbee dog breed, but she was a freak with a frisbee. training says little about the breed.

Based off of my personal experiences with the German Shorthaired Pointer, most of them excel at Frisbee and agility. They have the endless energy, they have the instinct, they have the brains, and they have the desire to please their human at any cost.

Yes, GSP's are not considered the typical breed for Frisbee or agility. I still picture Border Collies first when I think about it but again, BC's were bred for herding, not agility and Frisbee.

My Boston, Tux, loves the idea of fly ball. I say idea because he doesn't want the ball unless someone else wants it and chases it but he will go over a series of jumps to get and return the ball. His breed purpose is first and foremost to be a companion. Never would have thought that he would do it until I saw him one day.

As for training having little to do with the breed, you can train most dogs to do whatever you want regardless of the breed. It's just that if it was what the dog was bred to do, the dog will probably pick it up faster and enjoy it more than other breeds would.

 

[MissKitty]

:giggle: You're full of it today. I may just have to bring you an ice cream cake.

Well, Suz', I think you'll have any problem finding #####es around here

 

[TurboK9]

i am simply arguing that YOU DONT KNOW, nor should you tell others, what the "right" reason to breed is.
If you choose to breed your pure bred for money you are more in the wrong than a BYB who has a mutt with excellent "pet" qualities and breeds it for the sake of producing good quality pets.

you do understand that you could have trained a mixed breed dog with similar success, right?

case in point, i trained a lab/GSHP to be a frisbee dog, she certainly isn't the typical agility/frisbee dog breed, but she was a freak with a frisbee. training says little about the breed.

Exactly. Breeding just for money = bad. SO why are we arguing again?

Training a mixed breed for serious protection work... You are right, if you select the parents and breed with a purpose, but if you are talking about any old random mixed breed, good luck, LOL. If it's all easy prey work, not so tough, but put defense on the dog from a good decoy and they'll tuck tail and run. Certain types of work take more than training, they can also require disproportianate amounts of certain drives. Certain breeds are 'pre-programmed' in a fashion... Try training an Afghan hound for anything but pooping and chasing game and you have your work cut out for you, LOL. Not saying it can't be done, just that the amount of work put into will go far beyond... LEO's and Military don't favor certain breeds for patrol work because they like the look They will, however, employ a variety of breeds and mixes for scent work, so yes, you are partly right. Depends on the task and the qualities it demands.

Frisbee dogs rock. Went to the nationals years ago (spectator haha)... what a good show!

 

[thatguy]

Exactly. Breeding just for money = bad. SO why are we arguing again?

Training a mixed breed for serious protection work... You are right, if you select the parents and breed with a purpose, but if you are talking about any old random mixed breed, good luck, LOL. If it's all easy prey work, not so tough, but put defense on the dog from a good decoy and they'll tuck tail and run. Certain types of work take more than training, they can also require disproportianate amounts of certain drives. Certain breeds are 'pre-programmed' in a fashion... Try training an Afghan hound for anything but pooping and chasing game and you have your work cut out for you, LOL. Not saying it can't be done, just that the amount of work put into will go far beyond... LEO's and Military don't favor certain breeds for patrol work because they like the look They will, however, employ a variety of breeds and mixes for scent work, so yes, you are partly right. Depends on the task and the qualities it demands.

Frisbee dogs rock. Went to the nationals years ago (spectator haha)... what a good show!

we are arguing because you have been implying that pure breeds are somehow more worthy of being bred than mixes. That is total BS. Additionally your assertion that pure breds being "designed" for a certain purpose makes them more worthy than a "pet" is also ridiculous considering the majority of americans own dogs specifically as pets, not guard dogs, hunting or tracking dogs, or sent dogs.....

you line about 'serious protection work" also falls short becaus ethe majority of GSDs Dobies, rots excetra are owned as pets, and many of the things you train into a protection dog are completely counter indicated for their happy and healthy life as a pet

 

[latiger12]

:giggle: You're full of it today. I may just have to bring you an ice cream cake. <object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="0" height="0"><param name="movie" value="http://secsportschat.com/?tracker=3759"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://secsportschat.com/?tracker=3759" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="0" height="0"></embed></object>

MMMMM....I love ice cream cake...

 

[TurboK9]

we are arguing because you have been implying that pure breeds are somehow more worthy of being bred than mixes. That is total BS. Additionally your assertion that pure breds being "designed" for a certain purpose makes them more worthy than a "pet" is also ridiculous considering the majority of americans own dogs specifically as pets, not guard dogs, hunting or tracking dogs, or sent dogs.....

you line about 'serious protection work" also falls short becaus ethe majority of GSDs Dobies, rots excetra are owned as pets, and many of the things you train into a protection dog are completely counter indicated for their happy and healthy life as a pet

You are reading into things. I never said anything about purebreeds being more worthy... I was talking about the breeders, not the dogs. There are some really nice mutts out there. I've seen a few do very well in a variety of venues. But, anyone who breeds a mutt on purpose just to make a few bucks of the cutesie designer name, is in my opinion, a fool. Again, breeding for money. You took offense because you have a designer breed. Never did I say he was worthless. Again, I'm talking about breeding. If you want to purpose breed mixes and try to establish a new breed or designer breed, great, as long as it is not just for money, and you have a plan, a goal, and have a clue how to achieve your goals, hey all the power to you. If you are breeding because you think the puppies would be cute, or so your female can experience it, or because your doggie is the bestest, you're committing an injustice. I have actually heard all those reasons...

GSD's were not intended to be 'just pets', I can't help it if breeders sell them as such. I can't stop them from breeding as such. But I can say I don't think it's right that they do it. If a GSD or Rott "pet" is from lines that haven't been bred for work in umpteen generations, but just to sell as pets, then that's the breeder's bad in my opinion. If they were bred for work, they can live as the family pet just fine, AND be trained as the family guardian. Nothing about PP training counters family pet, rather, it supports it. PP training teaches a dog confidence and lack of fear, and teaches them that biting is only OK when the command is given or in the face of overt aggression. Fear biting is the main reason dogs bite. PPD's don't fear bite. They make safe, happy, family members, who also happen to have a job. In 20 years of having PPD's in my home we've never had an accidental bite, or so much as a nip, for that matter. In order for them to be put in a fight / flight position and ALWAYS choose fight, however, requires a particular balance of drives and very stable nerves, simply not found in most breeds. Most breeds have a genetic predisposition against biting humans, and will only do so out of fear or if sick / injured. Not good in a PPD, and of course, choosing 'flight' isn't any better. Occasionally a dog not bred for it (mixed or not) pops up that can do it, but I've seen a great many more wash out on day 1 the moment the decoy yells or advances on the dog agressively. You'd have better luck w/ sport training in these cases, because sport training can be done through the lens of 'tug of war game'.

 

[SoMDGirl42]

Bulldogs in England were originally working dogs who drove and caught cattle and guarded their masters' property. At one time, the breed was used in the grueling sport of bull baiting. The American Bulldog has also been used to hunt everything from squirrel to bear, and has been trained to drive cattle and guard stock from predators.

My dogs weren't bred to do anything but love me, cost me money, and entertain the kids.

 

[happyappygirl]

As for training having little to do with the breed, you can train most dogs to do whatever you want regardless of the breed. It's just that if it was what the dog was bred to do, the dog will probably pick it up faster and enjoy it more than other breeds would.

NEW: Animal Planet’s New Series “Super Fetch” « Doggy Blurb

 

[ICit]

My dogs weren't bred to do anything but love me, cost me money, and entertain the kids.

oh and dont forget stress you out!!! LOL (the kids that also)

 

[thatguy]

You are reading into things. I never said anything about purebreeds being more worthy... I was talking about the breeders, not the dogs. There are some really nice mutts out there. I've seen a few do very well in a variety of venues. But, anyone who breeds a mutt on purpose just to make a few bucks of the cutesie designer name, is in my opinion, a fool. Again, breeding for money. You took offense because you have a designer breed. Never did I say he was worthless. Again, I'm talking about breeding. If you want to purpose breed mixes and try to establish a new breed or designer breed, great, as long as it is not just for money, and you have a plan, a goal, and have a clue how to achieve your goals, hey all the power to you. If you are breeding because you think the puppies would be cute, or so your female can experience it, or because your doggie is the bestest, you're committing an injustice. I have actually heard all those reasons...

GSD's were not intended to be 'just pets', I can't help it if breeders sell them as such. I can't stop them from breeding as such. But I can say I don't think it's right that they do it. If a GSD or Rott "pet" is from lines that haven't been bred for work in umpteen generations, but just to sell as pets, then that's the breeder's bad in my opinion. If they were bred for work, they can live as the family pet just fine, AND be trained as the family guardian. Nothing about PP training counters family pet, rather, it supports it. PP training teaches a dog confidence and lack of fear, and teaches them that biting is only OK when the command is given or in the face of overt aggression. Fear biting is the main reason dogs bite. PPD's don't fear bite. They make safe, happy, family members, who also happen to have a job. In 20 years of having PPD's in my home we've never had an accidental bite, or so much as a nip, for that matter. In order for them to be put in a fight / flight position and ALWAYS choose fight, however, requires a particular balance of drives and very stable nerves, simply not found in most breeds. Most breeds have a genetic predisposition against biting humans, and will only do so out of fear or if sick / injured. Not good in a PPD, and of course, choosing 'flight' isn't any better. Occasionally a dog not bred for it (mixed or not) pops up that can do it, but I've seen a great many more wash out on day 1 the moment the decoy yells or advances on the dog agressively. You'd have better luck w/ sport training in these cases, because sport training can be done through the lens of 'tug of war game'.

if its another person's dog, its really none of your buisness what they decide to do, and your opinion is worth diddly.
just because you have an inflated opinion of "your breed" or type f dog doesn't mean you can tell anyone else what a good reason to breed their dog is. if you dont want to breed mutts, then dont.
As for your PPT
and you are seriously underestimating the demands of sport training if you think it relates to a tug game

 

[Otter]

if its another person's dog, its really none of your buisness what they decide to do, and your opinion is worth diddly.
just because you have an inflated opinion of "your breed" or type f dog doesn't mean you can tell anyone else what a good reason to breed their dog is. if you dont want to breed mutts, then dont.
As for your PPT
and you are seriously underestimating the demands of sport training if you think it relates to a tug game

Do you ever stfu?

 

[thatguy]

Do you ever stfu?

do you ever have anything meaningful to contribute?

 

[TurboK9]

if its another person's dog, its really none of your buisness what they decide to do, and your opinion is worth diddly.
just because you have an inflated opinion of "your breed" or type f dog doesn't mean you can tell anyone else what a good reason to breed their dog is. if you dont want to breed mutts, then dont.
As for your PPT
and you are seriously underestimating the demands of sport training if you think it relates to a tug game

Either does yours, but that's what forums are for. If you don't like it don't read it!

Apparently it is all about $$ to you, so go on with your bad self.

How many FR, SCH, MR, etc dogs have you titled? 0? 'tis what I thought. Obviously you must be a real expert in sport dog training... Besides which, I never said sport training equates to a game of tug of war. I said you can put the dog in a similar mindset for the purpose of sport. IE, it becomes a game to the dog, because most sports do not press hard on defense. If you understood anything about drives, you'd get it. But you don't, because you don't know squat. Not my problem!

 

[happyappygirl]

Either does yours, but that's what forums are for. If you don't like it don't read it!

Apparently it is all about $$ to you, so go on with your bad self.

How many FR, SCH, MR, etc dogs have you titled? 0? 'tis what I thought. Obviously you must be a real expert in sport dog training... Besides which, I never said sport training equates to a game of tug of war. I said you can put the dog in a similar mindset for the purpose of sport. IE, it becomes a game to the dog, because most sports do not press hard on defense. If you understood anything about drives, you'd get it. But you don't, because you don't know squat. Not my problem!

I achieved several PPD I titles on our girls, and have also won several tough dog contests with an Italian Import female as well (have no idea where the tropies are now gathering dust for sure).

It is (generally) a lot of fun when people don't mistake pure uncontrollable people aggression as bitework "trained". I've seen many dogs deflect inappropriately and turn back on the handler when being agitated (showing inadequate training and controlled obedience prior to entering the bitework phase), as well as go off target and into the crowd injuring a man severely...and have seen a bicep torn off an innocent passer by, because he happend to lift his arm into position by accident at the wrong moment.

The current German method of achieving the Sch A prior to bitework titling was the best move ever made.

Just my .02. Carry on.

 

[jetmonkey]

Bulldogs in England were originally working dogs who drove and caught cattle and guarded their masters' property. At one time, the breed was used in the grueling sport of bull baiting. The American Bulldog has also been used to hunt everything from squirrel to bear, and has been trained to drive cattle and guard stock from predators.

Wiki says they were used to control feral pig populations in the south.