Oil and Gas Hearings

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Toxick said:
Here's what I know: Oil Companies are racking in INSANE record-breaking profits... they are not breaking even to cover their higher expenses, or even coming out a just weensie-bit ahead. They are blowing the roof off the joint.

Here's what else I know: I'm taking it up the poop-chute every time I pull into a gas-station. And not just the tip, but doodad deep.

Roof of the joint? They are making the same net margins they have for years. Why not write to congress and work on lowering the taxes on gas? That is where all the real fat in gas prices is. When is congress/state government going to be greedy for taking 5-8 times as much as the oil companies take in profit? I don't see any Congressional hearings calling themselves before themself to explain why they need so much. Heck, their percentage was even bigger when gas prices were lower since its a flat cost most the time.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Toxick said:
No, just consumed by greed.

No, that is people who think oil companies should sink themselves to save $.05-$.08 a gallon IMHO. It is $10 billion overall but that is all it translates to... $.05-$.08 a gallon. All at the expense of a corporation which must employee thousands of people. Maybe they can cut what they pay those greedy workers, too. Maybe they can cut benefits! Maybe they can stop exploring for my oil and natural gas! Heck, lets stop them doing any alternative fuels research - that would have saved them $200-300 million last quarter and that could have gone to us! A 10% salary cut, a 10% benefits cut, and no research costs (exploration/alternative fuels) and we might just get that $10 billion back for the quarter! I really like the part about not researching new sources of oil and natural gas... they cut spending there and their product will be worth even more in the future and cost us!
 

Toxick

Splat
FromTexas said:
Roof of the joint?

Yeah - roof off the joint. Maybe you don't believe that 30,000 million in 3 months is a lot but I sure do.

FromTexas said:
They are making the same net margins they have for years.

And I find this extremely difficult to believe.

Please don't throw a bunch of numbers my way, because I won't know what they mean, and I'll care even less. I have enough math to deal with today.

Has oil consumption so drastically increased over the past couple years?



FromTexas said:
I don't see any Congressional hearings calling themselves before themself to explain why they need so much.


I'm fine with that.
I'm very fine with that.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Has oil consumption so drastically increased over the past couple years?

Yes, China is using over 20% more oil in the past two years. Their population dwarfs our own. That alone shows you the significance of the global demand change.
 

Toxick

Splat
FromTexas said:
Yes, China is using over 20% more oil in the past two years. Their population dwarfs our own. That alone shows you the significance of the global demand change.


Perhaps, but until I stop getting ass-raped at the pump, I'm still going to complain about it.


Maybe they should raise the prices in China alone, where the higher demand is.
 

FromTexas

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Toxick said:
Perhaps, but until I stop getting ass-raped at the pump, I'm still going to complain about it.


Maybe they should raise the prices in China alone, where the higher demand is.

China has plenty of oil to help deal with their increased demand. The problem is they don't have all the best technologies to get to it. Frankly, they suck at it. That is why they tried to buy UNOCAL, to have access to greater supply and be able to get technology to get to their own massive reserves. We bit our nose to spite our face on that one. Nix'ing the deal is fine, but we should at least help them get to their own oil to alleviate the pressures on global supply.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
FromTexas said:
Perception drives the spot market just like any commodities based market. Katrina was an aberration where people got freaked (we saw it all over these forums and other places) and were screaming we were going to be out of gas. That perception was national and fed by the media. Thus, prices rose.

Also, there has been a lot of increased supply from facilities coming back online since Katrina; maybe you just haven't been paying attention. In addition, several reports have come out since Katrina showing oil and gas levels are satisfactory and demand actually decreased due to price allowing for less reduction in supply than perception made out like it would be.

So, like stocks, commodities are driven mostly by what people think the future will be. People are stupid and respond to emotion first and foremost.

I have been paying very close attention. This is the reality (at least the reality according to the Departments of Energy and Interior): The hurricanes knocked out 95% of oil production in the New Orleans area. So, there was a lot of damage to the facilities. But here's the grabber - that 95% figure only accounts for 29% of domestic production. So while there were all those reports of widespread damage threatening supplies the truth is that less than 1/3rd of domestic production was damaged. As of today, 49% of the production ability is still damaged. On the surface it looks like a lot has been done as the "shut-in" production figures have gone from 98% to 49%, but the truth is that most of that 50% drop came from fixing minor damage within days and the first weeks after the storm hit. The remaining 50%, the more serious damage, isn't expected to be repaired for another three to six months minimum. So, the oil companies put the signs back up, replaced the broken glass, and swept up the debris, but all of the serious damage and production shortages still exist... yet the prices are going down. If it genuinely cost more to get gas refined because of the storm damage then the prices should not be coming down well past pre-storm values yet.

You're 100% correct about commodities people and how they react to speculative news rather than waiting for factual data, but all that does is impact the prices of fuels refined AFTER the storms, not the fuels refined and delivered to gas stations BEFORE the storms.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
And you are talking about gas station prices immediately as Katrina hit. Something I created a stir on already back when it happened because I said the stations were rising prices immediately before a true impact. I said gouging was happening then, but that has nothing to do with XOM's profit. We are talking two seperate issues.

A majority of the huge increases in gas prices were from people completely unrelated to XOM, Chevron, etc... I told people to stop feeding the panic, which helped drive those pump prices. Not all of it was gouging, though (and again, you can't say because some stations gouged that means the unrelated oil industry gouged). A lot of gas station owners sold out of their gas as Katrina hit and had to restock on the spot market. XOM's quarter made up much more than those two weeks of high prices from gas station pumps. In addition, their financial quarter aren't driven by gas pump price. It is driven by spot market and futures prices on oil/gas since that is where the bulk of their money is. Call the local gas station owners and local suppliers in to congress on pump prices infalting overnight. Don't call in XOM, Chevron, etc... XOM/Chevron don't set the price at the pump.
 

dustin

UAIOE
I'd like to wait and see how the big boys' profits compare this time next year to this last quarter's profits...
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
BTW further insight...

Of that approx. $10 billion, $1.6 billion wasn't even real money. It was from a restructuring... its a gain that appears on the books, but its not $1.6 taken in. So, that is $8.4 lowering their net margin to 8.4% if you take that out of the equation. Oh! And there was $.8 billion in asset sales... $7.6 billion now. After you diddle away other special items, their earnings per share only increased 38% year of year and that included a reduction in the number of shares outstanding. Not as spectacular as it was made out to be, eh?

Oh, and their main gain and what impacted year of year was an increase of $1.8 billion in oil and natural gas realizations (commodities markets). There was no major increase in gas station income.
 
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ylexot

Super Genius
My feeling is that the profits need to be looked at from a percentage standpoint, not a dollars standpoint. It's similar to how every couple years we have a new "highest grossing movie ever!" Well duh! As box office prices go up, of course they are going to make more $$$. If oil companies were gouging, their % profit would go up as well as the dollar figure.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
I don't think the issue was gouging, it's price fixing. Gouging would have to be extreme in order to warrant prosecution. Price fixing is covered under anti-trust laws and can be proven.

Why is gas close to the same price at all of the places north of the base, but 10-20 cents more over the bridge? Because Sheetz and Wa-Wa charge cost plus a set per gallon charge. That drives competition and that is why gas here is about the cheapest in the state.

In other parts, there are agreements about prices that stifle competition. That's illegal, but hard to prove.
 

ericw

New Member
ECON 101:
When demand rises, prices rise. When demand falls, prices fall.
When supply rises, prices fall. When supply falls, prices rise.

If you plot supply and demand on a graph, they look like an X, with equilibrium of price vs. quantity at the spot where the lines intersect. It's how a free market, which is self-regulating, efficiently distributes goods and services. Worldwide demand, especially from India and China, has been pushing prices up. A decade ago, China was a net exporter of oil, now it's a net importer. Their demand affects our prices because it all comes from the same places.
In the meantime, US refining and production has declined over the last 25 years because of NIMBYism, ever growing environmental regulation, and the fact that oil company profits weren't so high for much of that time. About three months ago, the Baltimore Sun ran an article about how some of the windfall profits were being reinvested in expanded refining capacity. The effects of the hurricanes further disrupted supply.
Regulating prices (or profits) leads to shortages, like the gas lines of the 1970s.

None of the above can be changed by legislation or wishful thinking or complaining by politicians who lack the basic understanding of economics to do their own jobs, never mind an oil company CEO's.

And there are beneficiaries. It's been noted that one of the biggest complainers about gas prices is California's loathsome junior senator, Barbara Boxer. Should the California public employees' pension plan, which invests heavily in oil companies, give back their windfall?

Finally, a couple of numbers:
Oil companies' collective "record" profits in 2004: $43 billion
State, Federal and local gas taxes collected in 2004: $58 billion
Which begs the question: who is doing the gouging here?
 
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soul4sale

New Member
FromTexas said:
Who was price gouging? A few individual gas stations? <snip> Price gouging the cost of refinement?

Those would be the ones. If a gas station is making more than a penny per gallon on gas these days, then I'd say they're gouging. Gotta love that damn zone system. Oh, and the refiners are making bank. Most of them don't have names the general public is familiar with, so they don't get called before Congress...
 

BuddyLee

Football addict
Awful funny how prices sure did fall significantly when the hearings began. Where'd all that money they supposedly needed go?
 

FromTexas

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BuddyLee said:
Awful funny how prices sure did fall significantly when the hearings began. Where'd all that money they supposedly needed go?

Prices were down before the hearings. They just made you pay attention since you are thinking about it now. Prices were down before the quarter was even annouced for XOM. And its not money they supposedly needed... oil is based on a commodity. Read up and understand commodities markets, trading, futures, and then get back to me on how their expenses and profits are driven by those and they are outside their hands for the most part.
 
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FromTexas

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soul4sale said:
Those would be the ones. If a gas station is making more than a penny per gallon on gas these days, then I'd say they're gouging. Gotta love that damn zone system. Oh, and the refiners are making bank. Most of them don't have names the general public is familiar with, so they don't get called before Congress...

You mean no name refiners like Chevron and Exxon/Mobil?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I want to be an oil tycoon!

Toxick said:
Maybe baseball players and the tobacco industry don't have the werewithal to sufficiently pad the pockets of the relevant Distinguished Gentlemen.

But the oil companies, pulling in record profits, at $30Billion per quater, do.





NO - I hope they all go to friggin jail.


Last I read, they'd made a mesely 10 billion on 100 million in sales.

Now, Terp says it's a $25 bil profit.

And then Tox says it's $30 billion!

All these guys gotta do is get out of bed and, viola! GOLD!
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
BuddyLee said:
Not this much. 'They' had no influence, this was noticed on a personal level.

I guess the $.48 a gallon drop in 2001 during the same time period happened because the oil companies were in the news ...

Can you find the similarities?

How about during the Oct, Nov, Dec timeframe? Do you notice it almost always does the same thing? (there are exceptions, but the norm)

Maybe because gasoline sales, as it tells you in the fire large DOE article, are seasonal! This is typically the lowest period of consumption before consumption rises on heating oil sales for the winter. Summer is highest, winter is second highest, spring is third, and fall is last.

This will always be your period of lowest prices if nothing else is going wrong in the world of oil and gas. If someone starts attacking oil pipelines in Iraq/Saudi Arabia again, the prices would be higher, for instance.

2001 helps even highlight something that resembles Katrina. One of the largest refinieries (and there arent that many) caught on fire in August. That drove prices to a high rate. So, the reason 2001 is up there is to show you the extreme difference from a summer rate with an abberation like Kat (the fire) and how much it can proceed to drop after because of fall seasonal pricing. There was no major windfall profit news during that 2001 timeframe. The news then was 9/11. So by your assumptions above, the oil companies wouldn't have brought prices down if they were in control of them since no one was looking at them.
 
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