Pope: Church Must Not Obsess About Abortion, etc.

[Radiant1]

God forgives all ,does he not ?

It requires a participation of sorts. If you ask for it and make reparation, yes. The only unforgivable sin is not being sorry for it. i.e. final impenitence. I imagine someone on their death bed still cursing God and not being sorry for the ####ty things they know they've done.

 

[BigBlue]

My fear is that the Pope will back off passing the word down that blatant sinners like Pelosi, Biden and Kerry should not receive Holy Communion until they firmly promise to stop supporting abortion, Euthanasia, Homosexual acts, etc.

......and this is the attitude that will kill the Catholic church .

 

[libby]

It requires a participation of sorts. If you ask for it and make reparation, yes. The only unforgivable sin is not being sorry for it. i.e. final impenitence. I imagine someone on their death bed still cursing God and not being sorry for the ####ty things they know they've done.

There is a great mission at St. George's Catholic in Valley Lee this week. I just returned from the first night; it goes through Wednesday. We have a Trappist monk telling us what forgiveness is, and what it is not, and how to begin the process of forgiveness. He is actually quite good, and he promised to have us out in an hour, and we were out in 56 minutes! That meant a lot to me, because I don't have time for those who go on endlessly, my kids need me.
Anyway, for anyone interested, from 6-7 over the next two nights.

On the forgiveness point, the monk was saying that God forgave us before we committed any sin. It's not that He hasn't forgiven us, it's that...and that's tomorrow's talk.
I remember one time hearing that it isn't that God turns us out of Heaven, but that we are finally confronted with the full reality of our offenses, and condemn ourselves. I was trying to compare it to when I hurt/offend another person, accidentally or willfully. Quite frankly, I probably avoid that person if I can; I just stay away. I'm thinking it's like that. We can't face what we've done and turn away from God; which is effectively what we have done our whole lives, turned away from His Will.

Well, carry on...

 

[Radiant1]

......and this is the attitude that will kill the Catholic church .

In my view, if someone is publicly and blatantly sinning then they should not receive Communion; HOWEVER, it's not for us to know if that person has confessed and what they have confessed to and the whys of it, that's for their confessor to determine. So my attitude is to keep my nose to myself and let Pelosi et al worry about themselves. As Catholics, we believe that to receive Communion unworthily is to bring condemnation on oneself, and I'm pretty sure Pelosi and company know this.

Btw, I don't think anything will "kill" the Catholic Church short of nuclear annihilation, and even then that's just it's physical existence.

Oh, and I hadn't heard of the letter to the pope that you mentioned. It's sad and awesome all at the same time. I'm not sure whether to cry or applaud.

I remember one time hearing that it isn't that God turns us out of Heaven, but that we are finally confronted with the full reality of our offenses, and condemn ourselves.

Yes! I think whomever said that was very wise.

The Cistercians have always been near to my heart for many reasons. I know your mom duties take up all of your time but if you haven't already and you get the chance, a silent retreat at Berryville, VA is a must do. I came away from a weekend retreat there more enlightened with knowledge of myself and my relationship with God and others than I ever dreamed possible. It was truly a life-changing event. https://www.virginiatrappists.org/

Edit: After looking through the website again it looks as if they are now only doing monastic immersion weekends, which involves a lot more than what they used to do with a silent retreat. (I never did manage to make it to Vigils).

 

[Makavide]

Pope Francis interview

if you are really interested in what the Pope had to say, read the whole interview and not Reuters synopsis of it....
English Translation of Pope's interviewA Big Heart Open to God | America Magazine

“I see clearly,” the pope continues, “that the thing the church needs most today is the ability to heal wounds and to warm the hearts of the faithful; it needs nearness, proximity. I see the church as a field hospital after battle. It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars! You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else. Heal the wounds, heal the wounds.... And you have to start from the ground up.

“The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all. The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, ‘This is not a sin’ or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds.

 

[hotcoffee]

I, personally, am very happy the Pope seems to be taking a good Christian tract. I lost a good friend after a priest told him he was doomed to hell and there was no way out. He killed himself after battling with what the priest said for a couple of years.

Had he still been alive today.... he might have gone back to the Catholic church rather than taking his own live in a dark basement.

I have another friend who has been beating herself up for having premarital sex with her husband. She has been carrying around the sin of being pregnant when they got married. She confided that she felt that she could never be forgiven for that sin.

The stringent doctrines of a lot of churches have done more harm than good for a long, long time. It's Christ that's important.... not men's rules.... Christ had a lot of discussions with the Pharisees about that.

I get what the Pope is saying and IMHO it's about time!

 

[libby]

I, personally, am very happy the Pope seems to be taking a good Christian tract. I lost a good friend after a priest told him he was doomed to hell and there was no way out. He killed himself after battling with what the priest said for a couple of years.

Had he still been alive today.... he might have gone back to the Catholic church rather than taking his own live in a dark basement.

I have another friend who has been beating herself up for having premarital sex with her husband. She has been carrying around the sin of being pregnant when they got married. She confided that she felt that she could never be forgiven for that sin.

The stringent doctrines of a lot of churches have done more harm than good for a long, long time. It's Christ that's important.... not men's rules.... Christ had a lot of discussions with the Pharisees about that.

I get what the Pope is saying and IMHO it's about time!

Well, those who follow a priest or pastor, lock, stock and barrel, and take no responsibility for reading the Scriptures, the Catechism, and even having their own prayer life to help them discern God's Nature and Will, are practicing idolatry, IMO. The pope, the priests, the pastors are there to guide us, but they are not solely responsible for the state of our souls.
Your friend that committed suicide must not have had any sort of faith life of his/her own. If he/she read the Bible, or spent any time in prayer, at Mass, or with any other priest at all, he/she would have known differently.
The pregnant friend, the same thing. It is said in my own parish over and over and over that there is NOTHING that cannot be forgiven. She doesn't think much of God's...anything...
In fact, at last night's mission the monk suggested that it is quite arrogant for us to think that we can actually offend God. For me, it's something to chew on. Our definition of offend, and what God might mean by "offend".

 

[Bavarian]

......and this is the attitude that will kill the Catholic church .

The Catholic Church will never fail because the Holy Spirit will not allow it. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

 

[BigBlue]

The Catholic Church will never fail because the Holy Spirit will not allow it. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

That is ignorance ,Catholics must grow and the Church must grow with them or die .

 

[Bird Dog]

That is ignorance ,Catholics must grow and the Church must grow with them or die .

You and your progressive friends think the same about the US Constitution.

The USA will not die nor will the Catholic Church.

Neither institution needs to "grow", only those who hate both need to grow.

 

[libby]

You and your progressive friends think the same about the US Constitution.

The USA will not die nor will the Catholic Church.

Neither institution needs to "grow", only those who hate both need to grow.

Gotta disagree with you there, BD. The USA does not enjoy the Divine Promise the CC does. The USA most certainly can die, and I think we are well on our way.

 

[Zguy28]

Well, those who follow a priest or pastor, lock, stock and barrel, and take no responsibility for reading the Scriptures, the Catechism, and even having their own prayer life to help them discern God's Nature and Will, are practicing idolatry, IMO. The pope, the priests, the pastors are there to guide us, but they are not solely responsible for the state of our souls.
Your friend that committed suicide must not have had any sort of faith life of his/her own. If he/she read the Bible, or spent any time in prayer, at Mass, or with any other priest at all, he/she would have known differently.
The pregnant friend, the same thing. It is said in my own parish over and over and over that there is NOTHING that cannot be forgiven. She doesn't think much of God's...anything...
In fact, at last night's mission the monk suggested that it is quite arrogant for us to think that we can actually offend God. For me, it's something to chew on. Our definition of offend, and what God might mean by "offend".

If we cannot offend God, then what is sin?

 

[b23hqb]

If we cannot offend God, then what is sin?

Truth. Sin is the only thing that offends God. Without sin, why need a god?

 

[GURPS]

The Holy War at Home



I remembered this scene this past week when it very much seemed to me that two of the sides in this holy war each opened fire in its own particular way. On the one hand, the Islamists slaughtered Christians and others in Pakistan and Kenya. On the other, the new pope gave an interview in which he expressed a fresh and beautiful vision of God’s merciful love for his human creation. Hey, from each according to his philosophy, as Karl Marx might have said if he had been right about anything.

Almost equally interesting was the reaction of the western media to these events: they did everything they could to mis-represent them both in context and in themselves. According to the Media Research Center, major media tied themselves in knots to keep from conveying the news that the attacks in a Nairobi mall and a Peshawar church were the work of Islamists. Journalists know that religion may be criticized as a retrograde and violent force in the world, but when a religion is criticized it can only be Christianity. That’s a central tenet of the journalistic religion! Which is Stupidity.

As for the Pope Francis interview, in a headline that looked as if the MSM were doing a satire of themselves, the New York Times, a satire of itself, announced dishonestly, “Pope Says Church Is Obsessed With Gays, Abortion and Birth Control.” Like, yeah, that’s what the pope really said. We believe you, New York Times. Cause you so smart. Idiots.

Anyway, the pope’s remarks did cause a bit of a furore, with leftists lamenting that Francis had almost burned the Bible but, damn it, not quite, and conservatives worried that the man was showing liberalizing tendencies and some Catholics trying to pretend that it was all business as usual… none of which actually got at the freshness, depth and compassion of the papal remarks themselves. The pope held up the individual human and his relationship with his loving heavenly father above rules and regulations… which is something that doesn’t happen often enough in any church and was, in fact, reminiscent of someone else… oh yeah! Jesus.

 

[hotcoffee]

The Holy War at Home



I remembered this scene this past week when it very much seemed to me that two of the sides in this holy war each opened fire in its own particular way. On the one hand, the Islamists slaughtered Christians and others in Pakistan and Kenya. On the other, the new pope gave an interview in which he expressed a fresh and beautiful vision of God’s merciful love for his human creation. Hey, from each according to his philosophy, as Karl Marx might have said if he had been right about anything.

Almost equally interesting was the reaction of the western media to these events: they did everything they could to mis-represent them both in context and in themselves. According to the Media Research Center, major media tied themselves in knots to keep from conveying the news that the attacks in a Nairobi mall and a Peshawar church were the work of Islamists. Journalists know that religion may be criticized as a retrograde and violent force in the world, but when a religion is criticized it can only be Christianity. That’s a central tenet of the journalistic religion! Which is Stupidity.

As for the Pope Francis interview, in a headline that looked as if the MSM were doing a satire of themselves, the New York Times, a satire of itself, announced dishonestly, “Pope Says Church Is Obsessed With Gays, Abortion and Birth Control.” Like, yeah, that’s what the pope really said. We believe you, New York Times. Cause you so smart. Idiots.

Anyway, the pope’s remarks did cause a bit of a furore, with leftists lamenting that Francis had almost burned the Bible but, damn it, not quite, and conservatives worried that the man was showing liberalizing tendencies and some Catholics trying to pretend that it was all business as usual… none of which actually got at the freshness, depth and compassion of the papal remarks themselves. The pope held up the individual human and his relationship with his loving heavenly father above rules and regulations… which is something that doesn’t happen often enough in any church and was, in fact, reminiscent of someone else… oh yeah! Jesus.

Glad we finally got to this part of the conversation.

Biblically would you quote from the Gospels or the Letters?

 

[libby]

If we cannot offend God, then what is sin?

I think the context of what the monk was trying to say was that God is so Infinite and Almighty, that in order for us to "offend" Him, He must condescend, which He does, out of Infinite Love.
Just thinking about mankind, does a great man on earth (by earthly standards), let's say Obama, or Putin or Caesar, etc., actually get "offended" by what some insignificant Joe on the street says, or thinks or does against him? How insignificant are we to God? Yet we can hurt Him, but He is there to forgive us anything.

 

[b23hqb]

I think the context of what the monk was trying to say was that God is so Infinite and Almighty, that in order for us to "offend" Him, He must condescend, which He does, out of Infinite Love.
Just thinking about mankind, does a great man on earth (by earthly standards), let's say Obama, or Putin or Caesar, etc., actually get "offended" by what some insignificant Joe on the street says, or thinks or does against him? How insignificant are we to God? Yet we can hurt Him, but He is there to forgive us anything.

No, He is not there to forgive us anything. Our forgiveness from God ends at a specific timeline of the non-believer. That time is the time of their death, last breath, assuming room temperature, whatever you want to call it. There is no getting out of it.

The forgiveness of the believing saved sinner lasts for eternity.

There is one unforgiveable sin - and that was mentioned previously in this thread and countless times over and over: the sin of unbelief.

If you are not saved when you die, you can never, ever be recovered and pulled from the jaws of hell and the Lake of Fire.

Ever. That is why there is a heaven and hell - so man can make a cognizant, purposeful choice before God - "I either believe or not." No one can, dead or alive, pull them out of it

I was wondering how long this would take for this to pop up.

 

[libby]

No, He is not there to forgive us anything. Our forgiveness from God ends at a specific timeline of the non-believer. That time is the time of their death, last breath, assuming room temperature, whatever you want to call it. There is no getting out of it.

The forgiveness of the believing saved sinner lasts for eternity.

There is one unforgiveable sin - and that was mentioned previously in this thread and countless times over and over: the sin of unbelief.

If you are not saved when you die, you can never, ever be recovered and pulled from the jaws of hell and the Lake of Fire.

Ever. That is why there is a heaven and hell - so man can make a cognizant, purposeful choice before God - "I either believe or not." No one can, dead or alive, pull them out of it

I was wondering how long this would take for this to pop up.

You think what I said contradicts any of what you said?? How in the world did you get that?

 

[b23hqb]

You think what I said contradicts any of what you said?? How in the world did you get that?

How about the part that "He is there to forgive us of anything?"

 

[libby]

How about the part that "He is there to forgive us of anything?"

Yeah, and you dispute that? I don't know what your religious affiliation is, but I am a Catholic Christian, and there is no sin that the God I worship will not forgive.