Pope says atheists can do good and go to heaven

[Railroad]

"...faith without works is dead..." - James 2:20 and James 2:26

But faith comes first and is more important than works, I believe. Christians are taught that it's by faith that we're saved, because there aren't enough good works in any lifetime to compensate in some way for our sins. So although I respect the Pope and the Catholic Church, and I respect many religious leaders who are trying to encourage people, etc., I personally have to stick with what I know:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

Actually I'm really grateful that my eternal destination isn't a result of my works, because I screw up, every day, despite trying hard not to.

So, these are my opinions; the Pope has his, and everyone has their own. I'm going to stick with what I know (that is, what I feel VERY assured is the Truth). It's not my place to try to force what I know on anybody. That responsibility rests with God as I understand Him (and I'm so glad that it's His job and not mine!).

For my Christian brothers and sisters here, it's a good idea to remember that our job is to sow and water, but leave the result up to God. Remember that HE "gives the increase." There are many mistaken people out there, and there's a lot of disinformation going around from many, many sources. Saying what we believe to be true is our responsibility, but convincing people isn't our job.

 

[b23hqb]

How presumptuous of you

No wonder people are fleeing churches. Pope Francis knows this

You are right. Many people either don't go or leave, especially from churches that simply preach the Gospel, what the Bible says. They just cannot stand the thought that they are sinners and going to hell for eternity except through the salvation of Jesus Christ.

Human pride is the biggest obstacle to most people, feeling that they can, and must, do it their way instead of God's way.

Sugar coating the goodness of one's self does not cover the problem of individual sin. Only God can do that.

When I said "See ya, but probably not", it had/has nothing to do with eternity. Just that I'll probably never see you, but I'd bet it would be a nice, friendly meeting iffn' we did.

About to head out the door for our morning services. Hope you can make a meeting today as well at whatever church affiliation you hold on to.

 

[Midnightrider]

Yep, its called hubris.

Meanwhile, here is what God actually says, not me.



Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

You should listen to what God says first, then your great-grandma. It will put her comments in the right context.

Those are no more gods words than vrais great granny's are. Those are words written by men about what they think about god. God didn't write the bible, people did.

 

[PsyOps]

Those are no more gods words than vrais great granny's are. Those are words written by men about what they think about god. God didn't write the bible, people did.

And I'm sure you believe Obama writes all of his own speeches.

 

[MarieB]

Not to change the subject, but I think this goes along well with this discussion. There are some surprising questions in this, and I agree that it's fascinating



Pope Francis' latest surprise: a survey on the modern family

Pope Francis is shaking things up again.

The pontiff with a penchant for surprises is making new waves by launching a survey of his flock on issues facing modern families — from gay marriage to divorce.

Very specific questions are being sent to parishes around the globe in preparation for next year's synod of bishops, a grassroots effort that experts say is unprecedented.

"It's fascinating," said Thomas Groome, a professor of theology at Boston College.
"It's pretty astonishing," agreed Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of the gay Catholic organization DignityUSA.

Cont
Pope Francis' latest surprise: a survey on the modern family - World News

 

[Midnightrider]

And I'm sure you believe Obama writes all of his own speeches.

I know you are obsessed with Obama, but what does that have to do with my point?

BTW, the difference is that Obama actually gets to review his speeches and approve of them prior to them being released as "his word". :shrug:

 

[LostNFound]

So you really believe an invisible being - that only a certain amt of people on earth BELIEVE in wrote a book? And you believe that even tho its been transcribed many, many times in many languages before it was transcribed into english that it is accurate? After all these years nothing has been lost or misunderstood?

Theres a reason its called faith and its lovely for those that it comforts or lets off the hook - as another poster put a few posts back - He's glad hes not judged on his works - and that simply believing in Jesus does the trick since he screws up often.

Personally, IMO, thats a terrible moral compass. Simply believe, screw up, but you're still going to get what you think is the ultimate prize. Sounds so simple.

 

[PsyOps]

I know you are obsessed with Obama, but what does that have to do with my point?

BTW, the difference is that Obama actually gets to review his speeches and approve of them prior to them being released as "his word". :shrug:

I knew you wouldn’t get it.

You don’t think God had plenty of time to not only appoint His speech-writers but also plan his message very carefully. Just like presidents trust other people to write their speeches God placed trust in certain people to deliver His message. But folks like you would like to dictate to God how He does things. How funny God knew people would come along thinking they have all the wise answers, casting doubt on His word. Thousands of years before you came along, a bunch of stupid MEN predicted people like you:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. – 1 Corinthians 1:18-21

 

[PsyOps]

So you really believe an invisible being - that only a certain amt of people on earth BELIEVE in wrote a book? And you believe that even tho its been transcribed many, many times in many languages before it was transcribed into english that it is accurate? After all these years nothing has been lost or misunderstood?

Theres a reason its called faith and its lovely for those that it comforts or lets off the hook - as another poster put a few posts back - He's glad hes not judged on his works - and that simply believing in Jesus does the trick since he screws up often.

Personally, IMO, thats a terrible moral compass. Simply believe, screw up, but you're still going to get what you think is the ultimate prize. Sounds so simple.

So you believe in the man-concocted (you know, by the same measure you claim the bible is flawed because it was written by men) THEORY that life got here through random chemical reactions? Funny how you trust man in one instance but not in the other.

 

[Radiant1]

Pope Francis embraces man with tumorous disease :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

THIS brought a tear to my eye. THIS is why I love the pope. In my opinion, THIS Christ-like behavior is so much more important than debating whether or not Atheists will go to Heaven. THIS is agape. THIS is the epitome of the Gospels.

 

[Midnightrider]

I knew you wouldn’t get it.

You don’t think God had plenty of time to not only appoint His speech-writers but also plan his message very carefully. Just like presidents trust other people to write their speeches God placed trust in certain people to deliver His message. But folks like you would like to dictate to God how He does things. How funny God knew people would come along thinking they have all the wise answers, casting doubt on His word. Thousands of years before you came along, a bunch of stupid MEN predicted people like you:

​

I get it, the bible is nothing more than a collection of writing by men, no different than a collection of Obamas speeches.
God didn't pick anyone to do the writing, they appointed themselves to speak for him. That's the difference. Obama actually did pick his speech writers AND he gets to review and SAY the things he does. God just has words forced into his mouth by folks who want to claim they knowing gods will.

 

[MarieB]

Pope Francis embraces man with tumorous disease :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

THIS brought a tear to my eye. THIS is why I love the pope. In my opinion, THIS Christ-like behavior is so much more important than debating whether or not Atheists will go to Heaven. THIS is agape. THIS is the epitome of the Gospels.

One of the comments:



Joaquim Carlos Rocha Santos • 2 days ago −
All my life I expected a Pope to behave literaly like Jesus, with His compassion and sensibility. If I cry over and over because of words and gestures of Francis I, I cry rejoiceful because he has that kind of heart. Finally.

 

[PsyOps]

I get it, the bible is nothing more than a collection of writing by men, no different than a collection of Obamas speeches.
God didn't pick anyone to do the writing, they appointed themselves to speak for him. That's the difference. Obama actually did pick his speech writers AND he gets to review and SAY the things he does. God just has words forced into his mouth by folks who want to claim they knowing gods will.

Hey, you do get it.

NOT!

You haven't taken the time to even try to understand the bible. Whether you believe it's true or not, you should at least read it and get a basic understanding if you're going to discuss it.

Do you believe the things Darwin, Hawking, and all the MEN that claim our universe is this or that based on nothing more than THEORY (unproven fact)? Things we can't see in the universe (black holes, dark matter, fermions, hadrons, bosons...), but you trust these MEN that they exist.

 

[Midnightrider]

Hey, you do get it.

NOT!

You haven't taken the time to even try to understand the bible. Whether you believe it's true or not, you should at least read it and get a basic understanding if you're going to discuss it.

Do you believe the things Darwin, Hawking, and all the MEN that claim our universe is this or that based on nothing more than THEORY (unproven fact)? Things we can't see in the universe (black holes, dark matter, fermions, hadrons, bosons...), but you trust these MEN that they exist.

I have read the bible. I understand it. That doesn't change the FACT that it was written by men and not by god.

You argument about scientist is woeful. No one believes that they are speaking for god when they say things. They are talking about theories, scientific theories that are based on repeatable experiments. No one claims Hawkin's, Darwin's or Einsteins theories are the word of god.

 

[PsyOps]

I have read the bible. I understand it. That doesn't change the FACT that it was written by men and not by god.

You argument about scientist is woeful. No one believes that they are speaking for god when they say things. They are talking about theories, scientific theories that are based on repeatable experiments. No one claims Hawkin's, Darwin's or Einsteins theories are the word of god.

Anyone that has a curious mind, that can ask “what if”, would operate on the premise of ‘IF’ God does exist then not only did this God create everything, but is also capable of inspiring His own Word through the humans He created. These aren’t things that require debate between those that believe in God and those that don’t. The simple premise that ‘IF God exists’ is all that is required to agree these things are possible. But since you don’t believe, it makes no difference at any level because you reject the premise of there being a god. It states plainly in the bible:

All Scripture is God-breathed… - 1 Timothy 3:16

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. – 1 Corinthians 2:13

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. – 2 Peter 1:21

The incessant touting that the bible was only written by men and can be flawed, can’t be disputed with any sort of fact. Since it IS documented that ALL scripture is inspired by God, this is all the proof that is needed devoid of any facts to the contrary.

You want to design God around your own rules; you want to dictate to God how He does things. God chose to have His Word spread by people. Do you expect God to go around the world personally talking to all of us rather than have other people do it? This seems to defeat the purpose of God putting us here in the first place.

Scientist like Hawking, Darwin, and Einstein believe they are spreading the truth; yet it’s called theory. There is nothing they are doing in regards to things we can’t see that can be considered absolute fact even if certain experiments are repeated over and over. It has been repeated over and over for thousands of years through believers that God exists; yet you claim those billions and billions (if not trillions) of people got it wrong.

 

[Midnightrider]

Anyone that has a curious mind, that can ask “what if”, would operate on the premise of ‘IF’ God does exist then not only did this God create everything, but is also capable of inspiring His own Word through the humans He created. These aren’t things that require debate between those that believe in God and those that don’t. The simple premise that ‘IF God exists’ is all that is required to agree these things are possible. But since you don’t believe, it makes no difference at any level because you reject the premise of there being a god. It states plainly in the bible:

​

​

​

The incessant touting that the bible was only written by men and can be flawed, can’t be disputed with any sort of fact. Since it IS documented that ALL scripture is inspired by God, this is all the proof that is needed devoid of any facts to the contrary.

You want to design God around your own rules; you want to dictate to God how He does things. God chose to have His Word spread by people. Do you expect God to go around the world personally talking to all of us rather than have other people do it? This seems to defeat the purpose of God putting us here in the first place.

Scientist like Hawking, Darwin, and Einstein believe they are spreading the truth; yet it’s called theory. There is nothing they are doing in regards to things we can’t see that can be considered absolute fact even if certain experiments are repeated over and over. It has been repeated over and over for thousands of years through believers that God exists; yet you claim those billions and billions (if not trillions) of people got it wrong.

It has not been demonstrated that god exists, not by you, not anyone else. People believing isn't the same as a demonstration of fact. People believed that Zeus existed, it's not a fact. People believed the sun was a god, it is not a fact. People believe that Christ was nothing more than a man (more than have believed him to be god BTW), but it is not a fact.

As for the "the bible says it was inspired by god so it must be true" argument. You can't prove something using it as the basis for proof. If it did you would accept both the Book of Mormon and the Quran as written by god. Do you?

All of my posts have been inspired by god.
I guess it has been documented that I am speaking the word of god

 

[PsyOps]

It has not been demonstrated that god exists, not by you, not anyone else. People believing isn't the same as a demonstration of fact. People believed that Zeus existed, it's not a fact. People believed the sun was a god, it is not a fact. People believe that Christ was nothing more than a man (more than have believed him to be god BTW), but it is not a fact.

As for the "the bible says it was inspired by god so it must be true" argument. You can't prove something using it as the basis for proof. If it did you would accept both the Book of Mormon and the Quran as written by god. Do you?

All of my posts have been inspired by god.
I guess it has been documented that I am speaking the word of god

I have never maintained that I have demonstrated God exists. I have stated over and over in this thread and other threads that there are people that don’t believe – interpretation = I have not demonstrated to you or anyone that doesn’t believe, that God exists.

There is about as much evidence that God exists than there is that black holes exist. You can see all sorts of evidence around them, but no one has ever seen either.

Billions and billions of believers over thousands of years, archeological evidence, written historical documentation that there is a God. Yet, no one alive today has ever seen God. It is estimated that 2.1 billion believe in God Yahweh.

Astronomers can see the motion of cosmological bodies move a certain way and they conclude it has to be a black hole, even though no one has ever seen one.

Scientists, in their inability to explain what happens between mass in space that there is this energy that exists. They can’t see it, they can’t prove it’s really there. They call it dark matter. They really have no clue that it does exist, yet they talk as though it does.

All have documentation by HUMANS saying it’s so. :shrug:

I am not saying because the bible says it’s so, then it has been proven… I am saying that giving it the full acumen of consideration, because you have people saying it is so – just as with black holes and dark matter – then you can conclude that IF God does exist, the writings (the bible) of this God were inspired by this God. This does not conclude that you must believe it; it only operates – just like any other unproven thing – on the premise of ‘what if’.

 

[Midnightrider]

I have never maintained that I have demonstrated God exists. I have stated over and over in this thread and other threads that there are people that don’t believe – interpretation = I have not demonstrated to you or anyone that doesn’t believe, that God exists.

There is about as much evidence that God exists than there is that black holes exist. You can see all sorts of evidence around them, but no one has ever seen either.

Billions and billions of believers over thousands of years, archeological evidence, written historical documentation that there is a God. Yet, no one alive today has ever seen God. It is estimated that 2.1 billion believe in God Yahweh.

Astronomers can see the motion of cosmological bodies move a certain way and they conclude it has to be a black hole, even though no one has ever seen one.

Scientists, in their inability to explain what happens between mass in space that there is this energy that exists. They can’t see it, they can’t prove it’s really there. They call it dark matter. They really have no clue that it does exist, yet they talk as though it does.

All have documentation by HUMANS saying it’s so. :shrug:

I am not saying because the bible says it’s so, then it has been proven… I am saying that giving it the full acumen of consideration, because you have people saying it is so – just as with black holes and dark matter – then you can conclude that IF God does exist, the writings (the bible) of this God were inspired by this God. This does not conclude that you must believe it; it only operates – just like any other unproven thing – on the premise of ‘what if’.

But your then doesn't follow your if. "If god exists then the bible is the inspired word of god". That does not logically follow.
Any of the religious books, or none or all of them, could be the inspired word of god.

As for your woeful comparisons to science. Again, science acknowledges that it those things are theories. You are claiming that the bible is fact and that as a result what you believe about god is the truth. Not just the truth, but the truth according to god. You keep saying things like "these are gods rules" when they aren't. At best they are the theories of men about god.

 

[PsyOps]

But your then doesn't follow your if. "If god exists then the bible is the inspired word of god". That does not logically follow.
Any of the religious books, or none or all of them, could be the inspired word of god.

As for your woeful comparisons to science. Again, science acknowledges that it those things are theories. You are claiming that the bible is fact and that as a result what you believe about god is the truth. Not just the truth, but the truth according to god. You keep saying things like "these are gods rules" when they aren't. At best they are the theories of men about god.

You’re putting far too much analysis into this.

Do black holes exist because we say so or do they just exist? Does God require a bible in order for Him to exist? That’s your logic. You’re operating on the premise that man created God. You’re operating the premise that it’s impossible that God could possibly exist, because He hasn't revealed himself to you.

You talk about things that logically follow… Nothing in this universe is logical. The existence of the universe, the matter in it, the life that exists… Devoid of a God none of it makes logical sense. Not one bit of it can be explained with any sort of logic.

- If there is no god, how did it all get here?

- What was before the big bang?

- If science somehow comes up with an explanation as to how life came to existence from random chemical interactions, how did those chemicals get here?

- If Science can explain how those chemicals got here, how did the stuff that led to those chemicals get here?

The questions can go on and on, and we are led down a road that has no logical explanation at all. So, trying to apply logic to God is just as ridiculous.

 

[vraiblonde]

THIS is agape.

I like this Pope, too, but I don't count because I'm a heathen. To me he epitomizes what it's supposed to be about (from my heathen POV and considering what turns me off of religion and Christians in general).

I know, however, that most "Christians" don't give a damn about me or what I think, and I'm okay with that.