Pope says atheists can do good and go to heaven

[Midnightrider]

You’re putting far too much analysis into this.

Do black holes exist because we say so or do they just exist? Does God require a bible in order for Him to exist? That’s your logic. You’re operating on the premise that man created God. You’re operating the premise that it’s impossible that God could possibly exist, because He hasn't revealed himself to you.

You talk about things that logically follow… Nothing in this universe is logical. The existence of the universe, the matter in it, the life that exists… Devoid of a God none of it makes logical sense. Not one bit of it can be explained with any sort of logic.

- If there is no god, how did it all get here?

- What was before the big bang?

- If science somehow comes up with an explanation as to how life came to existence from random chemical interactions, how did those chemicals get here?

- If Science can explain how those chemicals got here, how did the stuff that led to those chemicals get here?

The questions can go on and on, and we are led down a road that has no logical explanation at all. So, trying to apply logic to God is just as ridiculous.

That's pretty far from my logic. That is just the strawman you have have created because it is easier to defeat than my logic.

My logic is that the bible was written by men. Men who had no special understanding of god, just ordinary men. God had no part in writing the bible or any other religious book. Man created religion(s) not god. God either is or isn't all on his own and irrespective of what religion or man says about him.

That is why I take issue with you and others claiming "these are gods laws" when you reference bible verses about how to get into heaven. Those are the laws of men, ones you may believe really hard, but still just the construct of men.

If you want to play philosophical inquiry ill be happy to oblige, but be warned, there are a lot of tough questions for god believers. And that "where did it all come from" question applies to god too. Where did god come from? How did he get there?

 

[PsyOps]

That's pretty far from my logic. That is just the strawman you have have created because it is easier to defeat than my logic.

My logic is that the bible was written by men. Men who had no special understanding of god, just ordinary men. God had no part in writing the bible or any other religious book. Man created religion(s) not god. God either is or isn't all on his own and irrespective of what religion or man says about him.

That is why I take issue with you and others claiming "these are gods laws" when you reference bible verses about how to get into heaven. Those are the laws of men, ones you may believe really hard, but still just the construct of men.

If you want to play philosophical inquiry ill be happy to oblige, but be warned, there are a lot of tough questions for god believers. And that "where did it all come from" question applies to god too. Where did god come from? How did he get there?

Speaking of logic… How can you even claim to say what God did or didn’t do since you don’t believe in God?

None of your questions/conclusions are new to me. You're simply parroting the same atheist line that has been parroted since atheists have existed.

But given your logic that the bible or any so-called inspired word of God is from ordinary men that know nothing about it, then the same is true about philosophy, science, history, etc... all written by men and can't be trusted.

 

[Midnightrider]

Speaking of logic… How can you even claim to say what God did or didn’t do since you don’t believe in God?

None of your questions/conclusions are new to me. You're simply parroting the same atheist line that has been parroted since atheists have existed.

But given your logic that the bible or any so-called inspired word of God is from ordinary men that know nothing about it, then the same is true about philosophy, science, history, etc... all written by men and can't be trusted.

One is the unknown, god and the after life. The other is things that can be known through scientific observations. Scientist represent their observations as theories. You represent the writings of the bible as the word of god and god's truth.
The burden of prove is on you, the one making the claim. You haven't met it. The best you came up with is "it says so in the bible". As I said before, so does the Book of Mormon and the Quran. :shrug:

Science can be verified through repeatable experiments. There is no verification of religion.

 

[PsyOps]

One is the unknown, god and the after life. The other is things that can be known through scientific observations. Scientist represent their observations as theories. You represent the writings of the bible as the word of god and god's truth.
The burden of prove is on you, the one making the claim. You haven't met it. The best you came up with is "it says so in the bible". As I said before, so does the Book of Mormon and the Quran. :shrug:

Science can be verified through repeatable experiments. There is no verification of religion.

The scientific community talks about black holes as though it’s a fact. If you ask any of them they will emphatically state black holes exist. I’ve said this before in the forum… back in the late 70s and early 80s my neighbor was actually John Mather (look him up). He would come to our house and my dad and he would have discussions about the work he was doing at the time (the study of the Big Bang). He talked about the Big Bang as though it really happened. Not theory, but fact. So I can tell you from one of the top minds in science how they think about these things.

I’ll say it again… I am not trying to prove to you God exists. It’s pretty obvious that isn’t going to happen anyway. Because you don’t believe, I will never be able to convince you that belief in God is not something that requires any sort of proof that comes from science or history anything of the sort…

Just as you believe the burden of proof is on me to prove to you God exists, the burden of proof is on you to prove He doesn’t. You can’t! No you don’t have to prove a negative. But you will not convince me God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is also for YOU to come to the conclusion that God exists. It doesn’t come with “oh, there He is…” or “God actually talked to me…” To try to explain to a non-believer what it means to become a Christian is pointless. You have to come to it on your own. There is no logic to it. There is no explaining to someone that doesn’t believe what it means to have that feeling in your heart that God is there. It’s my hope that you do some day. Until then, I can only offer explanations that make sense to me with no expectation that it will make sense to you.

 

[Midnightrider]

The scientific community talks about black holes as though it’s a fact. If you ask any of them they will emphatically state black holes exist. I’ve said this before in the forum… back in the late 70s and early 80s my neighbor was actually John Mather (look him up). He would come to our house and my dad and he would have discussions about the work he was doing at the time (the study of the Big Bang). He talked about the Big Bang as though it really happened. Not theory, but fact. So I can tell you from one of the top minds in science how they think about these things.

I’ll say it again… I am not trying to prove to you God exists. It’s pretty obvious that isn’t going to happen anyway. Because you don’t believe, I will never be able to convince you that belief in God is not something that requires any sort of proof that comes from science or history anything of the sort…

Just as you believe the burden of proof is on me to prove to you God exists, the burden of proof is on you to prove He doesn’t. You can’t! No you don’t have to prove a negative. But you will not convince me God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is also for YOU to come to the conclusion that God exists. It doesn’t come with “oh, there He is…” or “God actually talked to me…” To try to explain to a non-believer what it means to become a Christian is pointless. You have to come to it on your own. There is no logic to it. There is no explaining to someone that doesn’t believe what it means to have that feeling in your heart that God is there. It’s my hope that you do some day. Until then, I can only offer explanations that make sense to me with no expectation that it will make sense to you.

I have never said god doesn't exist. I have only contended that the bible is written by men, not god.

Why wouldn't god actually talk to me? Even in the bible god speaks to people. And there you have one of the biggest inconsistencies in Christianity. You expect people to believe that the bible was written through men by god, but you discount anyone who claims god spoke to them.

As for the Big Bang theory, that's all it is. Many parts of the theory are proven out by observable facts, but over all it is still just a theory. Your misunderstanding about that notwithstanding. Also, no scientist, even your daddy's neighbor, claims to be speaking for god when they make statements about the universe or theories that explain it.

BTW, black holes are fact. They are observable fact. The theories about what they are and how they work are theories but the existence of something in space that we have named black holes are fact. They can be measured and observed through repeatable experiments by independent scientists. You really need a different analogy

 

[PsyOps]

I have never said god doesn't exist. I have only contended that the bible is written by men, not god.

Why wouldn't god actually talk to me? Even in the bible god speaks to people. And there you have one of the biggest inconsistencies in Christianity. You expect people to believe that the bible was written through men by god, but you discount anyone who claims god spoke to them.

As for the Big Bang theory, that's all it is. Many parts of the theory are proven out by observable facts, but over all it is still just a theory. Your misunderstanding about that notwithstanding. Also, no scientist, even your daddy's neighbor, claims to be speaking for god when they make statements about the universe or theories that explain it.

BTW, black holes are fact. They are observable fact. The theories about what they are and how they work are theories but the existence of something in space that we have named black holes are fact. They can be measured and observed through repeatable experiments by independent scientists. You really need a different analogy

Actually no one has actually seen a black hole. Physicists have only observed the behavior of objects in space around what they call a black hole. They assume it’s a collapsed star. You can’t see them. That’s why they are conveniently called ‘black’. No one has been to one to actually observe it firsthand as is the case with so many things science claims is out there.

I don’t expect anyone to believe anything. I am only stating that IF God exists, it makes perfect sense that He would use man to convey His message. It is man that God has chosen for salvation. Who else would communicate for God? Pigs? And I do not disclaim God spoke to anyone. If God spoke to you, you certainly have an odd way of promoting the message God gave you. Or do you think, when God talks to you, it's not a good idea to tell folks what God told you? Certainly you wouldn't want people to think you're a hypocrite for being a man speaking for God.

 

[Midnightrider]

Actually no one has actually seen a black hole. Physicists have only observed the behavior of objects in space around what they call a black hole. They assume it’s a collapsed star. You can’t see them. That’s why they are conveniently called ‘black’. No one has been to one to actually observe it firsthand as is the case with so many things science claims is out there.

I don’t expect anyone to believe anything. I am only stating that IF God exists, it makes perfect sense that He would use man to convey His message. It is man that God has chosen for salvation. Who else would communicate for God? Pigs? And I do not disclaim God spoke to anyone. If God spoke to you, you certainly have an odd way of promoting the message God gave you. Or do you think, when God talks to you, it's not a good idea to tell folks what God told you? Certainly you wouldn't want people to think you're a hypocrite for being a man speaking for God.

You don't know that, you choose to believe it. There is no evidence that god, if he exists, has chosen anyone or anything for salvation. There is no logic that dictates a he would communicate at all, let alone through man. Again, that is just something you choose to believe.
As for god talking to people, that takes us back to the Book of Mormon and the Quran.

You science analogy is completely lacking. Observations made about physical things are not comparable to an entity that may or may not exist. One of the hallmarks of science is an experiment that other scientists can repeat and get the same results. What repeatable experiment points to a Christian god?

 

[PsyOps]

You don't know that, you choose to believe it.

Oh for crying out loud... you don't want an honest debate. You're just a contrarian. Disagree just to disagree.

Have a good night.

 

[Midnightrider]

Oh for crying out loud... you don't want an honest debate. You're just a contrarian. Disagree just to disagree.

Have a good night.

I have been doing nothing but having an honest debate. Sorry if it got too real for you.

 

[Railroad]

What repeatable experiment points to a Christian god?

For what it's worth, and knowing you won't accept this anyway, God can be observed as a singularity. Wikipedia's article is (in part) as follows:

In mathematics, a singularity is in general a point at which a given mathematical object is not defined, or a point of an exceptional set where it fails to be well-behaved in some particular way, such as differentiability. See Singularity theory for general discussion of the geometric theory, which only covers some aspects.
For example, the function
<dl><dd>

</dd></dl> on the real line has a singularity at x = 0, where it seems to "explode" to ±∞ and is not defined. The function g(x) = |x| (see absolute value) also has a singularity at x = 0, since it is not differentiable there. Similarly, the graph defined by y² = x also has a singularity at (0,0), this time because it has a "corner" (vertical tangent) at that point.
The algebraic set defined by

in the (x, y) coordinate system has a singularity (singular point) at (0, 0) because it does not admit a tangent there.

In physics, there are examples, such as the event horizon near black holes and the "God Particle," where both the science and the math break down. Dark Matter is a term applied to explain what holds the universe together when there is no other explanation except God.

Just like seeing how an algorithm applies equally well to both astrophysics and atomic physics, some of us see God manifested in various ways (thus we say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three manifestations of God Himself). Note that we've observed the otherwise unexplainable in the structures of the universe as far as our powers of observation allow us to observe, in the way people are influenced and act, and in the way people change in astonishing ways.

So in both macro and micro worlds, and in people and events, some of us see God's autograph. For most of us who see things from this perspective, there is no need for further experimentation or proof.

But as I said before, all that can be done with these discussions is to put what we understand out there for others to accept or reject. Flogging the topic to death brings to mind something written by Samuel Langhorne Clemens:

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. -MARK TWAIN (Not Robert Heinlein)

 

[Midnightrider]

For what it's worth, and knowing you won't accept this anyway, God can be observed as a singularity. Wikipedia's article is (in part) as follows:



In physics, there are examples, such as the event horizon near black holes and the "God Particle," where both the science and the math break down. Dark Matter is a term applied to explain what holds the universe together when there is no other explanation except God.

Just like seeing how an algorithm applies equally well to both astrophysics and atomic physics, some of us see God manifested in various ways (thus we say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three manifestations of God Himself). Note that we've observed the otherwise unexplainable in the structures of the universe as far as our powers of observation allow us to observe, in the way people are influenced and act, and in the way people change in astonishing ways.

So in both macro and micro worlds, and in people and events, some of us see God's autograph. For most of us who see things from this perspective, there is no need for further experimentation or proof.

But as I said before, all that can be done with these discussions is to put what we understand out there for others to accept or reject. Flogging the topic to death brings to mind something written by Samuel Langhorne Clemens:

You are correct in that I don't see it that way. The unexplained is just that, unexplained- for now. For instance the black hole is something that is largely unknown now, and doesn't lend itself to our current understanding. that doesn't mean we won't eventually figure the science of black holes out.
People used to be mystified by the movement of planets and comments. Then the science caught up and we gained that knowledge.

 

[itsbob]

So an atheist does good things, volunteers their time, donates to worthy causes with no reward, or award.. he's just good for goddness sake.

The Christian does the same work but for a reward. He's being good so he can get to heaven or being good so he won't go to hell. Not for goodness sake, but for personal gain for eternity.

Which is truly the good person?

 

[Railroad]

People used to be mystified by the movement of planets and comments.

I really AM a backward soul. I'm STILL mystified by the movement of comments!

Seriously, though, to your point, I get what you're saying. To a degree, I concur. There will always be something more to learn. I differentiate from theory and incontrovertible fact, so even things we think we observe and can apply theories to explain, still leave room for doubt. Remember that I work on the premise that what makes sense to me and other people, may be totally bogus and the subject of a good bit of laughter on God's part. Many things DO seem to work as we suppose them to, and therein we benefit from the progression of applied physics.

So anyway, I'm off to enjoy some solar radiation with my car's top down! Have a great afternoon.

 

[Railroad]

So an atheist does good things, volunteers their time, donates to worthy causes with no reward, or award.. he's just good for goddness sake.

The Christian does the same work but for a reward. He's being good so he can get to heaven or being good so he won't go to hell. Not for goodness sake, but for personal gain for eternity.

Which is truly the good person?

Good question! I've learned that there is no such thing as a truly good person.

 

[b23hqb]

Good question! I've learned that there is no such thing as a truly good person.

Agreed. There are only saved and unsaved sinners - no other category, really, in the eyes of God, even if we can't see Him. Yet.

 

[Zguy28]

So an atheist does good things, volunteers their time, donates to worthy causes with no reward, or award.. he's just good for goddness sake.

The Christian does the same work but for a reward. He's being good so he can get to heaven or being good so he won't go to hell. Not for goodness sake, but for personal gain for eternity.

Which is truly the good person?

Why is a reward in eternity (reward meaning the pleasure of our God) not a "good" reason to do good works? By what standard are judging that?

Christians do good works out of gratitude to God for what He gave us and what He gave for us. Mercy drives mercy. Compassion drives compassion. Love drives love.

 

[Midnightrider]

Agreed. There are only saved and unsaved sinners - no other category, really, in the eyes of God, even if we can't see Him. Yet.

You can't speak "from the eyes of god" only your eyes based on your religion and your religious dogma.

 

[glhs837]

Agreed. There are only saved and unsaved sinners - no other category, really, in the eyes of God, even if we can't see Him. Yet.

So, the lesson is, do whatever you want, then repent at the the end and it's all good? Mob bosses, Pol Pot, Saint Theresa, all the same?

Railroad, that's a sad world you live in, IMHO. No truly good people? What does it take to be "truly good"?

 

[Railroad]

Railroad, that's a sad world you live in, IMHO. No truly good people? What does it take to be "truly good"?

:shrug: Not sad as I see it, at least not for THAT reason. "Truly Good?" The Bible defines that, and frankly, since I'm on my lunch break, I don't have time to go look it all up.

And, we're BOTH entitled to our opinions.

 

[Zguy28]

So, the lesson is, do whatever you want, then repent at the the end and it's all good? Mob bosses, Pol Pot, Saint Theresa, all the same?

Railroad, that's a sad world you live in, IMHO. No truly good people? What does it take to be "truly good"?

It takes perfection and a heart not tainted by sin. This is why the virgin birth is essential to the Christian faith. Jesus did not inherit a sinful nature.