Rapture Discussion

[FireBrand]

No matter where I line up on the rapture discussion and interpretation, I have always thought that this song was cool. The late Larry Norman was one of the founding pioneers of CCM.
Enjoy.....

 

[Zguy28]

Preterism seems to have some fatal flaws IMO.
1) If we accept the time line. Jesus has returned already and the rapture has already taken place. Secretly.

2) Also the cataclysmic events of MT 24 and Rev have already taken place. This does not make sense. In MT 24 Jesus says that the events of those days (end times) will be like no other, it will be wordly etc.

3) It's generally accepted that John writes Rev around AD 90 which means that the events of MT 24 would have already taken place. John would have writing about future events. If he wrote the book prior to the events of MT 24 we are still left wondering how this all took place ref to 1 and 2.

4) After the events of AD 70 we would then see the bowl judgments being poured out etc. There is no historical evidence for this as it described in Rev.

5) Rev 1:7. Every eye will see him upon his return and mourn (unbelievers). Again it just seems impossible for these events to have taken place.

Just what I could think of off the top of my head.

Make sure you don't confuse Partial-Preterism with Full Preterism. Partial believe everythis up to Rev 20 is fulfilled and are mostly optimistic Post-Millennials AKA they believe the Millennium is the church gradually converting the entire world and then Christ will return.

Full preterism is heresy for obvious reasons.

 

[Starman3000m]

Nowhere in the bible is Anti-christ (with a capital A) mentioned.

The antichrist ( "A" ) is inferred through prophecy as being the one who has been given a specific 7-year period of activity upon this earth to deceive and wreak havoc, as mentioned in Revelation Ch. 13.

The text refers to a specific individual who has been empowered by "the Dragon," aka Satan, after having recovered from a deadly wound.
He also has a sidekick defined as The False Prophet. An ideal situation for establishing the end-times One World Government/One World Religion system.

This is believed to be where "A" is literally Satan incarnate who will be in control of the world's system - demanding to be worshipped and waging war against all who defy him. He will have a determined vengeance mainly aimed against Israel and against those who profess faith in Christ.

That is the Great Tribulation; Hasn't happened yet - but I believe it will when "A" is revealed.

Regarding the Rapture: There is a school of thought that the Holy Spirit of God has to be removed from this earth so as to allow Satan to have the complete and alloted time period through the Great Tribulation. It is prior to Satan taking control over the world that those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God (born again believers) will be taken out of the world. This brings up the question that if the Holy Spirit is removed to give Satan a chance to rule the world, why would God allow His Children, indwelled by the Holy Spirit to remain? The belief is that those who had been "sitting on the fence" and had not made a decision to accept Christ will then do so in defiance of "A" and will be the ones persecuted and beheaded for their faith. However, we are seeing a prelude to that right now in Muslim countries where that is taking place. When "A" takes over it will be expanded to a worldwide hunt to persecute and kill Jews, Christians and all who do not worship the Beast.

 

[Zguy28]

The antichrist ( "A" ) is inferred through prophecy as being the one who has been given a specific 7-year period of activity upon this earth to deceive and wreak havoc, as mentioned in Revelation Ch. 13.

The text refers to a specific individual who has been empowered by "the Dragon," aka Satan, after having recovered from a deadly wound.
He also has a sidekick defined as The False Prophet. An ideal situation for establishing the end-times One World Government/One World Religion system.

This is believed to be where "A" is literally Satan incarnate who will be in control of the world's system - demanding to be worshipped and waging war against all who defy him. He will have a determined vengeance mainly aimed against Israel and against those who profess faith in Christ.

That is the Great Tribulation; Hasn't happened yet - but I believe it will when "A" is revealed.

Regarding the Rapture: There is a school of thought that the Holy Spirit of God has to be removed from this earth so as to allow Satan to have the complete and alloted time period through the Great Tribulation. It is prior to Satan taking control over the world that those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God (born again believers) will be taken out of the world. This brings up the question that if the Holy Spirit is removed to give Satan a chance to rule the world, why would God allow His Children, indwelled by the Holy Spirit to remain? The belief is that those who had been "sitting on the fence" and had not made a decision to accept Christ will then do so in defiance of "A" and will be the ones persecuted and beheaded for their faith. However, we are seeing a prelude to that right now in Muslim countries where that is taking place. When "A" takes over it will be expanded to a worldwide hunt to persecute and kill Jews, Christians and all who do not worship the Beast.

Sounds pretty similar to this: Tabular Chart of the Apocalypse, by Samuel Garratt

 

[foodcritic]

Make sure you don't confuse Partial-Preterism with Full Preterism. Partial believe everythis up to Rev 20 is fulfilled and are mostly optimistic Post-Millennials AKA they believe the Millennium is the church gradually converting the entire world and then Christ will return.

Full preterism is heresy for obvious reasons.

Even that does not make sense to me. Rev 20? That means most of Rev has taken place already. This is where I start losing the thought line.

 

[foodcritic]

The antichrist ( "A" ) is inferred through prophecy as being the one who has been given a specific 7-year period of activity upon this earth to deceive and wreak havoc, as mentioned in Revelation Ch. 13.

The text refers to a specific individual who has been empowered by "the Dragon," aka Satan, after having recovered from a deadly wound.
He also has a sidekick defined as The False Prophet. An ideal situation for establishing the end-times One World Government/One World Religion system.

This is believed to be where "A" is literally Satan incarnate who will be in control of the world's system - demanding to be worshipped and waging war against all who defy him. He will have a determined vengeance mainly aimed against Israel and against those who profess faith in Christ.

That is the Great Tribulation; Hasn't happened yet - but I believe it will when "A" is revealed.

Regarding the Rapture: There is a school of thought that the Holy Spirit of God has to be removed from this earth so as to allow Satan to have the complete and alloted time period through the Great Tribulation. It is prior to Satan taking control over the world that those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God (born again believers) will be taken out of the world. This brings up the question that if the Holy Spirit is removed to give Satan a chance to rule the world, why would God allow His Children, indwelled by the Holy Spirit to remain? The belief is that those who had been "sitting on the fence" and had not made a decision to accept Christ will then do so in defiance of "A" and will be the ones persecuted and beheaded for their faith. However, we are seeing a prelude to that right now in Muslim countries where that is taking place. When "A" takes over it will be expanded to a worldwide hunt to persecute and kill Jews, Christians and all who do not worship the Beast.

I have a problem with that. There is no evidence of that. The bible teaches/implies that they are not the same. The anti-christ as we call him is not ANTI in the sense that he has all the power of Christ he just is opposite in nature and seeks worship. He is controlled by satan.

 

[Zguy28]

Even that does not make sense to me. Rev 20? That means most of Rev has taken place already. This is where I start losing the thought line.

Yes, they believe that Revelation 1-19 are fulfilled in the First Century culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (this would be the "coming" of Jesus in judgment; but not The Second Coming). The "coming" of the Son of Man into the presence of God in Daniel 7 actually took place in the First Century and eventually Christ will remove all of His enemies at which time He will return and usher in a New Heaven and New Earth.

Links: Preterism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

The PreteristSite ~ Identifying Antichrist ~ 100% Heresy-Free

Disclaimer: I am not a preterist or amillennialist or postmillennialist. I merely think it a valid view not to be easily dismissed. I am a historic premillennialist (commonly called Post-Trib).

 

[Starman3000m]

I have a problem with that. There is no evidence of that. The bible teaches/implies that they are not the same. The anti-christ as we call him is not ANTI in the sense that he has all the power of Christ he just is opposite in nature and seeks worship. He is controlled by satan.

ANTI = against Christ. The spirit of antichrist was already in this world during the time of the Apostles according to scripture:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

That part speaks of the "spirit of antichrist" however, I am of the opinion that "A" will be a personification of antichrist and is the Beast of Revelation 13.

I agree that "A" does not have anywhere near the power of Christ but he is given limited power enough to wreak havoc through the Great Tribulation.

I have also agreed that "A" seeks worship and that he is going to be controlled by Satan. This transition is pretty much what happened in the case of Judas and it will happen again when "A" takes control of the One World/One Government system.

Referring to Judas:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (John 6:70)

And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)

That's what I believe is going to happen when "A" recovers from the deadly wound at mid point of the 7-year period allowed to him.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast(Revelation 13:2-3)

 

[foodcritic]

Yes, they believe that Revelation 1-19 are fulfilled in the First Century culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (this would be the "coming" of Jesus in judgment; but not The Second Coming). The "coming" of the Son of Man into the presence of God in Daniel 7 actually took place in the First Century and eventually Christ will remove all of His enemies at which time He will return and usher in a New Heaven and New Earth.

Links: Preterism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

The PreteristSite ~ Identifying Antichrist ~ 100% Heresy-Free

Disclaimer: I am not a preterist or amillennialist or postmillennialist. I merely think it a valid view not to be easily dismissed. I am a historic premillennialist (commonly called Post-Trib).

I understand the disclaimer. If you are defending that view for the sake of argument, what biblical evidence is there?

For example I checked the Preterism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

here is the argument:

Example argument from Scripture

The sayings in Matthew 24 concerning the "Great Tribulation" are seen in preterism as being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem cuminating in AD 70. Support for this claim is drawn from Jesus' saying that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place," which has the appearance of limiting the events described to an event that was going to take place in the first century.

Potential difficulties arise when critics of preterism point out that Matthew 24 also refers to the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven. The claim is then made that since this refers to the return of Jesus in the air, and this never happened in the first century, the preterist approach must be mistaken. The preterist reply has been to point out that there is no reason to assume that this "coming" is the second coming of Christ hoped for in the New Testament. In the Old Testament God speaks of coming to His people in judgement. In Isaiah 19, as a striking example, the prophet refers to the impending judgement on Egypt, and we are told "See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and is coming to Egypt." The language of God coming to us, and even the language of riding the clouds, does not necessarily refer to the second coming of Christ that Christianity generally affirms.

My old (church) pastor clarified this verse this way

this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place
Translated to MT24: 4 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

The interpretation:

The generation that sees the signs will not pass away. So whatever generation sees the signs (from MT 24), they will see the Lord's coming. He (Jesus) did not mean them directly but to that future generation.

That verse seemed to be the only scripture that was cited to support it from the website.

 

[foodcritic]

ANTI = against Christ. The spirit of antichrist was already in this world during the time of the Apostles according to scripture:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

That part speaks of the "spirit of antichrist" however, I am of the opinion that "A" will be a personification of antichrist and is the Beast of Revelation 13.

I agree that "A" does not have anywhere near the power of Christ but he is given limited power enough to wreak havoc through the Great Tribulation.

I have also agreed that "A" seeks worship and that he is controlled by Satan. This is pretty much what happened in the case of Judas and it will happen again when "A" takes control of the One World/One Government system.

Referring to Judas:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (John 6:70)

And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)

That's what I believe is going to happen when "A" recovers from the deadly wound at mid point of the 7-year period allowed to him.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast(Revelation 13:2-3)

I won't disagree over your observation. It's a very minor detail in our discussion.

 

[shorti]

my pastor did a series on the Book of Revelation - he's been given a gift of being able to put things into perspective...

you can see this at His Bridge

click on messages

find those entitled "The End..."

 

[Zguy28]

I understand the disclaimer. If you are defending that view for the sake of argument, what biblical evidence is there?

For example I checked the Preterism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

here is the argument:


My old (church) pastor clarified this verse this way

this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place
Translated to MT24: 4 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

The interpretation:

The generation that sees the signs will not pass away. So whatever generation sees the signs (from MT 24), they will see the Lord's coming. He (Jesus) did not mean them directly but to that future generation.

That verse seemed to be the only scripture that was cited to support it from the website.

Yes, that is indeed one of their main arguments and a heavy one at that especially in light of their main "opponents" the Dispensationalist's insistence of literal hermeneutic in interpretation, except in this case.

There is a thread at this link that examines the various verses that use the word translated as "generation" in the Gospels in the original languages. It's quite thorough and technical and the poster named John Reece is quite the expert on Greek language (and a preterist).
Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34

 

[foodcritic]

Yes, that is indeed one of their main arguments and a heavy one at that especially in light of their main "opponents" the Dispensationalist's insistence of literal hermeneutic in interpretation, except in this case.

There is a thread at this link that examines the various verses that use the word translated as "generation" in the Gospels in the original languages. It's quite thorough and technical and the poster named John Reece is quite the expert on Greek language (and a preterist).
Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34

Just because we say we are literal does not mean that we don't see the verse as literal. We obviously disagree on the meaning. I think it's literal just to a future generation. The conversation Jesus is having is literal word for word as the author can recall it. I don't think this should hang on a verse while there is compelling evidence to the contrary.

As I re-read some verses from MT 24 again, Jesus use the word "you". Let's say as we read this should we apply this to "us" since he is speaking to us? Or what if we read this verse out loud to a group, are they the "you" he is speaking to? See what I am saying?

Again I ask this question to anyone. Where is the evidence?

 

[Starman3000m]

I won't disagree over your observation. It's a very minor detail in our discussion.

OK - back to my personal thoughts about the "Rapture".
I do not believe that God will allow His Born-Again Children to be on this earth when "A" (empowered by Satan) takes control during the Great Tribulation. If the Holy Spirit has to be moved out of the way to enable "A" to control this world then those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God will be be removed as well since we are One in the Spirit. However, I believe it is possible that born-again believers could still be here during the first 3 1/2 years prior to the start of the Great Tribulation. If so, we will see a false peace agreement made whereby the Jews will be allowed back on the Temple Mount and then their Third Temple could be built (through the pretense of peace and security)

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape
(1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Revelation indicates that it will be at mid-point when the Great Tribulation begins and chaos ensues throughout the world. If the rapture occured at that time, the event would only be explained away while the world's population is going through political and societal upheavals and given an immediate order to pledge obedience to the New World Order. This is where I believe the "fence sitters" who were not yet God's Children will need to decide which way to go. They will need to decide then whether to take the mark of the beast or place their trust in the Christ they had been told about -knowing the consequences they will suffer because of their decision. Those are my thoughts - but, either way, I am prepared to pay the consequences if we believers are still left to be here on this earth when "A" is empowered to wreak havoc, persecution and slaying of those of us who have placed faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour.

 

[Zguy28]

Just because we say we are literal does not mean that we don't see the verse as literal. We obviously disagree on the meaning. I think it's literal just to a future generation. The conversation Jesus is having is literal word for word as the author can recall it. I don't think this should hang on a verse while there is compelling evidence to the contrary.

As I re-read some verses from MT 24 again, Jesus use the word "you". Let's say as we read this should we apply this to "us" since he is speaking to us? Or what if we read this verse out loud to a group, are they the "you" he is speaking to? See what I am saying?

You have to examine the original language. Obviously it was primarily intended for His original audience, just like the rest of Scripture. Also, you need to be careful, in the Greek often times there is no word present for "you" which is normally humas (in Matt 24 at least). It's inserted by the translators. When it is present, it is the accusative form of humeis which means literally "you or yourself" in the direct sense as the subject of the verb. It is not normally the general "you" as far as I can tell.

Again I ask this question to anyone. Where is the evidence?

I can ask the same question about futurism. Where is the exegetical evidence that shows that Jesus was referring to anything except the judgment on Jerusalem and it's destruction in AD 70 under the Roman general Titus who desecrated the temple?

To say there is no biblical evidence is frankly ridiculous. The original language lends credence to it. What evidence is there that this generation refers to some people far in the future when in every other place in Matthew's gospel it does not, but instead refers to the current generation of Jews?

Here is a summary of Matt 24 from commentator Adam Clarke from circa 1830:

Matthew 24 -
Christ foretells the destruction of the temple, Mat_24:1, Mat_24:2.

His disciples inquire when and what shall be the sign of this destruction, Mat_24:3.

Our Lord answers, and enumerates them - false Christs, Mat_24:5.

Wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, Mat_24:6-8.

Persecution of his followers, Mat_24:9.

Apostasy from the truth, Mat_24:10-13.

General spread of the Gospel, Mat_24:14.

He foretells the investment of the city by the Romans, Mat_24:15-18.

The calamities of those times, Mat_24:19-22.

Warns them against seduction by false prophets, Mat_24:23-26.

The suddenness of these calamities, Mat_24:27, Mat_24:28.

Total destruction of the Jewish polity, Mat_24:29-31.

The whole illustrated by the parable of the fig-tree, Mat_24:32, Mat_24:33.

The certainty of the event, though the time is concealed, Mat_24:34-36.

Careless state of the people, Mat_24:37-41.

The necessity of watchfulness and fidelity, illustrated by the parable of the two servants, one faithful, the other wicked, Mat_24:42-51

This chapter contains a prediction of the utter destruction of the city and temple of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the whole political constitution of the Jews; and is one of the most valuable portions of the new covenant Scriptures, with respect to the evidence which it furnishes of the truth of Christianity. Every thing which our Lord foretold should come on the temple, city, and people of the Jews, has been fulfilled in the most correct and astonishing manner; and witnessed by a writer who was present during the whole, who was himself a Jew, and is acknowledged to be an historian of indisputable veracity in all those transactions which concern the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[camily]

Pre-trib'er.

 

[migtig]

Is this one of the signs?
Birds Drop Dead and Fish Die

 

[foodcritic]

[=Zguy28;4479897]You have to examine the original language. Obviously it was primarily intended for His original audience, just like the rest of Scripture.

That is partially true. I like to think it was primarily intended for all creation. It is intended for us also. And I think we both would agree that prophetic statements can be fulfilled more than once.

Also, you need to be careful, in the Greek often times there is no word present for "you" which is normally humas (in Matt 24 at least). It's inserted by the translators. When it is present, it is the accusative form of humeis which means literally "you or yourself" in the direct sense as the subject of the verb. It is not normally the general "you" as far as I can tell

. OK

I can ask the same question about futurism. Where is the exegetical evidence that shows that Jesus was referring to anything except the judgment on Jerusalem and it's destruction in AD 70 under the Roman general Titus who desecrated the temple?

Titus, while an evil fellow, was not the Anti christ. He does not fit the total description. (Set's up his image in the temple etc.)

The verses cited don't, IMO , mean anything by themselves. Each could be refuted (forum space forbids it) but lets stick to the following:

If this premise is true, what do you say of MT 24:29-31 (lets just stick to these verses) for discussion.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1) Did this happen in AD 70?
2) What evidence supports it?

To say there is no biblical evidence is frankly ridiculous. The original language lends credence to it. What evidence is there that this generation refers to some people far in the future when in every other place in Matthew's gospel it does not, but instead refers to the current generation of Jews?

Let me re-phrase that there is no biblical evidence and no historical evidence that the events took place in scope or worldwide calamity. How would all of these world wide events mysteriously be left out of historical records? Again each verse is very easily refuted.
The site provide very reasonable refutation to the list of verses you cited.
A Scriptural Critique of Full Preterism In Light of Matthew 24 and Related Passages

This chapter contains a prediction of the utter destruction of the city and temple of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the whole political constitution of the Jews; and is one of the most valuable portions of the new covenant

Correct, however Israel is a state again. That is one example of what is to come.

Scriptures, with respect to the evidence which it furnishes of the truth of Christianity. Every thing which our Lord foretold should come on the temple, city, and people of the Jews, has been fulfilled in the most correct and astonishing manner; and witnessed by a writer who was present during the whole, who was himself a Jew, and is acknowledged to be an historian of indisputable veracity in all those transactions which concern the destruction of Jerusalem

. ?

 

[Zguy28]

That is partially true. I like to think it was primarily intended for all creation. It is intended for us also. And I think we both would agree that prophetic statements can be fulfilled more than once.

. OK


Titus, while an evil fellow, was not the Anti christ. He does not fit the total description. (Set's up his image in the temple etc.)

The verses cited don't, IMO , mean anything by themselves. Each could be refuted (forum space forbids it) but lets stick to the following:

If this premise is true, what do you say of MT 24:29-31 (lets just stick to these verses) for discussion.


1) Did this happen in AD 70?
2) What evidence supports it?





Let me re-phrase that there is no biblical evidence and no historical evidence that the events took place in scope or worldwide calamity. How would all of these world wide events mysteriously be left out of historical records? Again each verse is very easily refuted.
The site provide very reasonable refutation to the list of verses you cited.
A Scriptural Critique of Full Preterism In Light of Matthew 24 and Related Passages



Correct, however Israel is a state again. That is one example of what is to come.

. ?

The statement at the end was from the commentator Adam Clarke, not me. He was referring to the Jewish historian Josephus.

Have you ever read Josephus? He is quite lengthy, but here is a site with some relative excerpts (granted, it is trying to prove a point, but it's presentation of Josephus is accurate nonetheless).

Josephus: The Wars Of The Jews; History of the Destruction Of Jerusalem

 

[foodcritic]

Starman3000m;4479856]OK - back to my personal thoughts about the "Rapture". I do not believe that God will allow His Born-Again Children to be on this earth when "A" (empowered by Satan) takes control during the Great Tribulation.

I make a distinction between Tribulation and Wrath. Christians will be subject to tribulation.

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Rev 13: 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

Rev 14: 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. Implies they are being subjected to the beast

If the Holy Spirit has to be moved out of the way to enable "A" to control this world then those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God will be be removed as well since we are One in the Spirit. However, I believe it is possible that born-again believers could still be here during the first 3 1/2 years prior to the start of the Great Tribulation.

You said earlier that you did not think that believers would be here during the GT. I think the verses demonstrate that they will.

If so, we will see a false peace agreement made whereby the Jews will be allowed back on the Temple Mount and then their Third Temple could be built (through the pretense of peace and security)

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape
(1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Revelation indicates that it will be at mid-point when the Great Tribulation begins and chaos ensues throughout the world. If the rapture occured at that time, the event would only be explained away while the world's population is going through political and societal upheavals and given an immediate order to pledge obedience to the New World Order. This is where I believe the "fence sitters" who were not yet God's Children will need to decide which way to go. They will need to decide then whether to take the mark of the beast or place their trust in the Christ they had been told about -knowing the consequences they will suffer because of their decision. Those are my thoughts - but, either way, I am prepared to pay the consequences if we believers are still left to be here on this earth when "A" is empowered to wreak havoc, persecution and slaying of those of us who have placed faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour.

This is THE most important part. Christians should prepare for the persecution that is coming and explained in MT 24, Rev etc. We should not let them think they will be raptured prior to that. The whole list of verses demonstrates Christians being persecuted.