Revelation 18 and Babylon

[StoneThrower]

Last week in Bible study we did Revelation 18 and in the discussion Babylon was discussed, some thought it was talking about the former city of Babylon. I took it as a symbolic representation as it is no way that it could be talking about the same city in the Old Testament as Scripture makes it very clear it was laid to waste never to be inhabited again. Understanding that those passages have both a near and far term application.

The question then arises who or what is Babylon in Revelation 18 is it a political entity such as Rome?
Reading a commentary last evening by Walter Scott "The Exposition Of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ" he took it as meaning the church and had an interesting take.
I was curious as to how others see this after giving it some thought?


On a side note I did find a theological error as in the beginning of chapter 18 referring to the mighty angel he propose the idea this is Christ, which is impossible for Christ to take an angelic state after the incarnation.

 

[hotcoffee]

Last week in Bible study we did Revelation 18 and in the discussion Babylon was discussed, some thought it was talking about the former city of Babylon. I took it as a symbolic representation as it is no way that it could be talking about the same city in the Old Testament as Scripture makes it very clear it was laid to waste never to be inhabited again. Understanding that those passages have both a near and far term application.

The question then arises who or what is Babylon in Revelation 18 is it a political entity such as Rome?
Reading a commentary last evening by Walter Scott "The Exposition Of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ" he took it as meaning the church and had an interesting take.
I was curious as to how others see this after giving it some thought?


On a side note I did find a theological error as in the beginning of chapter 18 referring to the mighty angel he propose the idea this is Christ, which is impossible for Christ to take an angelic state after the incarnation.

I agree that the mighty angel cannot be Christ. After all.... Christ is above the angels. There is definitely a heirarchy in Heaven and Christ would be worshiped by the angels.

That's my thought anyway...

 

[Zguy28]

On a side note I did find a theological error as in the beginning of chapter 18 referring to the mighty angel he propose the idea this is Christ, which is impossible for Christ to take an angelic state after the incarnation.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but why would you say its impossible for Christ to do so?

Is anything impossible for God other than that which contradicts His nature?

I have two very good commentaries on Revelation that I recommend.

Revelation (NICNT) - Robert Mounce
The Book of Revelation by Robert H. Mounce (9780802825377) | Best Commentaries Reviews

A Commentary on the Revelation of John - George Eldon Ladd
A Commentary on the Revelation of John by George Eldon Ladd (9780802816849) | Best Commentaries Reviews

 

[b23hqb]

From my readings and thoughts, I take this Babylon as some great city (many scholars believe Rome) that is represented symbolically by the final destruction of the earths political and economic powers centered there. It probably contained the worlds greatest commercial enterprises that control the world business market.

It would also mean the end of the "harlot" church, the worldwide religious system that dominated the world.

I know Chapter 17 speaks of the destruction of "the religious" Babylon, but undoubtedly the "church" and the economic system was one and the same, and they both end in Ch 18.

 

[StoneThrower]

I'm not saying I agree with it, but why would you say its impossible for Christ to do so?

Is anything impossible for God other than that which contradicts His nature?

I have two very good commentaries on Revelation that I recommend.

Revelation (NICNT) - Robert Mounce
The Book of Revelation by Robert H. Mounce (9780802825377) | Best Commentaries Reviews

A Commentary on the Revelation of John - George Eldon Ladd
A Commentary on the Revelation of John by George Eldon Ladd (9780802816849) | Best Commentaries Reviews

Well because after the incarnation, Christ form is that of Man, the God Man for all eternity. Gone are the days of the various forms of the preincarnate Christ.

Something though that came up this morning from all of this though, is the Angel of the Lord, not an, but The Angel of the Lord. I always held as a preincarnate Christ doing the will of the father. And many agree with that but in Luke after the incarnation we have The Angel of the Lord sending Philip. Therein lies the problem. So now that will require further study as one of those two verses is after the incarnation.

 

[cheezgrits]

Is it possible the Babylon it speaks of could be the EU of today? A single city yet with multiple languages?

Or the New World Order wished for by the current political leadership?

 

[Radiant1]

Is it possible the Babylon it speaks of could be the EU of today? A single city yet with multiple languages?

Or the New World Order wished for by the current political leadership?

When it comes to the book of Revelations, an apocalyptic literary genre with allegory upon allegory, anything is possible.

 

[b23hqb]

Is it possible the Babylon it speaks of could be the EU of today? A single city yet with multiple languages?

Or the New World Order wished for by the current political leadership?

Could very well be, and a lot of biblical scholars believe it is so (Daniel ch 2 & 7:7-8, Rev 13:1), concerning the 10 horns of the beast.

Things do seem to be falling into place rapidly.

EU Recommendation 666

Did you know about European Union Recommendation #666

Posted by Bible Probe on July 01, 2005 at 04:53:26:

Recommendation 666
Revived Roman Empire?
Is it any coincidence that the "harlot" or Revelation is shown on EU money?


The European Union (EU) today is made up of over 25 countries, however the ten nations of the Western European Alliance have a separate status as full members, while those nations who joined subsequent to the original 10 have only associate membership, or observer status. This 10 nation military wing of the EU may very well fulfill the prophecy of the beast with 10 horns from Daniel 7:7-8 and Revelations 13:1. On this beast’s back will ride the woman that symbolizes a global religious system that is to appear before Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Today, the EU does encompass the old Roman Empire.

Also, in another stamp the symbol of a naked woman riding on the back of a beast depiction of the harlot woman was reproduced on the centenary stamp of the European Union, in a huge painting in the EU Parliament's new building in Brussels, and by a huge sculpture outside the new E.U. Council of Ministers Office in Brussels. The new European coinage, the Euro, bears the same insignia. One EU poster shows the people of Europe rebuilding the Tower of Babel. The text on the poster says, “Europe: Many Tongues – One Voice.” The stars on the poster are inverted into pentagrams, a recognized occult sign.

A massive "space age" Crystal Palace tower (officially called the Tower Building) houses the Fifth Parliament of Europe. The 679 seats of its massive hemicycle are designed like the crew seats in the Star Trek space machines. While these seats are allocated to Members, one seat remains unallocated and unoccupied. The number of that seat is 666. The relevant section of the seating-plan provided to each Member reads as follows:

665 Zissener
666 -------
667 Cappato


The purpose of the EU’s creation was and is, ultimately, to create a European super-state or “United States of Europe”, as some have suggested naming it, that would eventually rival the United States in influence and military might. In 1999, Javier Solana became the High Representative for the EU’s foreign and security policy, and through recommendation #666, he was given emergency powers over the military wing of the EU in 2000. All that currently remains to create a truly revived Roman Empire is the creation of a permanent executive branch of government and the full integration of the new Euro currency. With the introduction of the new EU constitution, the groundwork is being laid for just such an executive branch and economic system.

Pope John Paul II worked very hard to get the European Union to include at least one reference to God in their Charter. But European leaders would not listen.

 

[Zguy28]

Is it possible the Babylon it speaks of could be the EU of today? A single city yet with multiple languages?

Or the New World Order wished for by the current political leadership?

Maybe, but who knows? All we know are the characteristics. Could it be a city? Or could it be the worldly system of materialism and apostate religion? Hard to say. Many Protestants think it was a reference to Rome or the papacy. I think it is a more general picture system of religion and government and living and that the importance of the vision is that Christ will conquer all the worldly systems and ways.

 

[Starman3000m]

...groundwork is being laid for just such an executive branch and economic system.

Pope John Paul II worked very hard to get the European Union to include at least one reference to God in their Charter. But European leaders would not listen.

And now, in order to be politically correct and at the same time appease the Islamic world, the accepted "reference" they all can agree upon will be Allah.

Afterall, the Vatican believes that the Allah of the Muslims and the God of the Bible are the same deity.

For example, the RCC Catechism states the following:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

Many political and religious leaders (including the papacy) have been calling for a New World Order for many years.

 

[Zguy28]

And now, in order to be politically correct and at the same time appease the Islamic world, the accepted "reference" they all can agree upon will be Allah.

Afterall, the Vatican believes that the Allah of the Muslims and the God of the Bible are the same deity.

For example, the RCC Catechism states the following:



Many political and religious leaders (including the papacy) have been calling for a New World Order for many years.

Perhaps Roman Catholicism and Islam are both fulfillments of a "new world order" as you call it?

 

[Starman3000m]

Perhaps Roman Catholicism and Islam are both fulfillments of a "new world order" as you call it?

Yes, it appears that through the guise of "ecumenism" the RCC, Islam and other denominations will "pull together" to establish the One World Religion that will work in unison with the coming One World Government.

By the way, the term "new world order" is not my definition; it is the definition made that has been mentioned by several world political and religious leaders for several years. They are continually working to make this global system happen.

Some examples:

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
- David Rockefeller

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of "liberalism" they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas, for many years U.S. Socialist Presidential candidate.

"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all."
Strobe Talbot, President Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State, as quoted in Time, July 20th, l992.

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

New World Order Quotations

 

[Starman3000m]

Add this comment

Add these comments from John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI regarding the calls for a new world (international) order:

"More than ever, we need a new international order that draws on the experience and results achieved in these years by the United Nations," he declared during a service to mark the Roman Catholic Church's World Day of Peace, celebrated on January 1.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jan/02/catholicism.religion

also:
VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican called Monday for radical reform of the world's financial systems, including the creation of a global political authority to manage the economy.

Vatican Calls For Radical Economic Reform Of World's Financial Systems

 

[Zguy28]

Yes, it appears that through the guise of "ecumenism" the RCC, Islam and other denominations will "pull together" to establish the One World Religion that will work in unison with the coming One World Government.

By the way, the term "new world order" is not my definition; it is the definition made that has been mentioned by several world political and religious leaders for several years. They are continually working to make this global system happen.

Some examples:

Not what I was getting at, but oh well. I don't put much stock in "one world religions" and "new world orders" as actual specific institutions to be identified.

Rather, I see a worldly system that has existed since the Fall, and of which apostate churches, false religions, cults, and also materialism is all part of. Basically on one side is the worldly system and on the other Christ. I have found it fruitless to look for "signs" when Jesus says not to. The only signs I look for are those that accompany His coming in glory.

Mat 24:27-28 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Not to mention that I don't even believe that is the point of the vision given to John. The point, as I see it, is the assurance of Christ's victory over his enemies.

If fallen and lost men are determined to form a one world government, I won't be able to stop it. All I can do is pray, proclaim the gospel and persuade them for Christ, and endure what comes my way.

It's a hard thing to accept, but the facts are that the church has always flourished in tribulation and grown complacent in material prosperity. A perfect example is the Jerusalem church in Acts.

 

[Radiant1]

Not what I was getting at, but oh well. I don't put much stock in "one world religions" and "new world orders" as actual specific institutions to be identified.

Rather, I see a worldly system that has existed since the Fall, and of which apostate churches, false religions, cults, and also materialism is all part of. Basically on one side is the worldly system and on the other Christ. I have found it fruitless to look for "signs" when Jesus says not to. The only signs I look for are those that accompany His coming in glory.

Mat 24:27-28 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Not to mention that I don't even believe that is the point of the vision given to John. The point, as I see it, is the assurance of Christ's victory over his enemies.

If fallen and lost men are determined to form a one world government, I won't be able to stop it. All I can do is pray, proclaim the gospel and persuade them for Christ, and endure what comes my way.

It's a hard thing to accept, but the facts are that the church has always flourished in tribulation and grown complacent in material prosperity. A perfect example is the Jerusalem church in Acts.

 

[Starman3000m]

...It's a hard thing to accept, but the facts are that the church has always flourished in tribulation and grown complacent in material prosperity. A perfect example is the Jerusalem church in Acts.

Yet, Jesus warned of a coming time of tribulation where the church will not fluorish but will be persecuted and many beheaded because of their faith in Him. This is the prophetic time when a One World System of antichrist is set up to take control of this world - right before the Second Advent (Return) of Jesus Christ.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Matthew 24:21)

IMO: Biblical Prophecy is unfolding in that direction. So, I believe that there will be the formation of a New World Order as many of the world's politicians and ecumenical religious leaders are working toward.