Sentencing Phase for England Set to Begin

[Ken King]

I understand very well that they taught me in boot camp about unlawful orders.

Have you ever received one? If so, what specific action did you take?

 

[Christy]

I understand very well that they taught me in boot camp about unlawful orders.

Riddle me this, how would you know what you were being ordered to do was an unlawful order if you had not been given training, not been given clear guidance by your superiors as to what was lawful handling of enemy combatants and what was not. Also take into consideration that enemy combatants do not fall under the Geneva Convention, it's all a bit fuzzy isn't it? You would just take it upon yourself to say "sorry Sgt, not gonna do it." In the middle of a prison, in the middle of a war, where disobeying orders warrant a much higher level of punishment than sitting back stateside, in a cush little office.

I think it's easy to sit back and point fingers when you are away from that environment and have never been put in that position or the stress of dealing with those yahoos every single day. I feel bad for her and quite honestly if I'd have been in her position, I'd have probably done far worse than stick a leash on them.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

Hmmmmm.....based on this:

18. (U) Accountability SOPs were not fully developed and
standing TACSOPs were widely ignored. Any SOPs that did
exist were not trained on, and were never distributed to the
lowest level. Most procedures were shelved at the unit TOC,
rather than at the subordinate units and guards mount sites.
(ANNEXES 44, 67, 71, and 85)

Christy makes a good point below.....

Riddle me this, how would you know what you were being ordered to do was an unlawful order if you had not been given training, not been given clear guidance by your superiors as to what was lawful handling of enemy combatants and what was not? Also take into consideration that enemy combatants do not fall under the Geneva Convention, it's all a bit fuzzy isn't it? You would just take it upon yourself to say "sorry Sgt, not gonna do it." In the middle of a prison, in the middle of a war, where disobeying orders warrant a much higher level of punishment than sitting back stateside, in a cush little office.

I think it's easy to sit back and point fingers when you are away from that environment and have never been put in that position or the stress of dealing with those yahoos every single day. I feel bad for her and quite honestly if I'd have been in her position, I'd have probably done far worse than stick a leash on them.

(still reading during caution laps )

 

[Ken King]

Riddle me this, how would you know what you were being ordered to do was an unlawful order if you had not been given training, not been given clear guidance by your superiors as to what was lawful handling of enemy combatants and what was not. Also take into consideration that enemy combatants do not fall under the Geneva Convention, it's all a bit fuzzy isn't it? You would just take it upon yourself to say "sorry Sgt, not gonna do it." In the middle of a prison, in the middle of a war, where disobeying orders warrant a much higher level of punishment than sitting back stateside, in a cush little office.

I think it's easy to sit back and point fingers when you are away from that environment and have never been put in that position or the stress of dealing with those yahoos every single day. I feel bad for her and quite honestly if I'd have been in her position, I'd have probably done far worse than stick a leash on them.

I bet you would have had a bigger grin on your face in the pictures too.

Okay, not to continue making light of the "abuse" several prisoners suffered, because looking at that "secret" document of the investigation there were some actual abuses, but what England was directed to do, and because she was directed to do it by her supervisor, she shouldn't be held liable for that.

As I understand it she has a known learning disability, was easily swayed and manipulated by Graner, not to mention that she hadn’t received adequate training for the task at hand, thus she shouldn’t be guilty of a thing. Her command failed her, as well as the nation, and the blame needs to rest where it belongs at the command level.

 

[HollowSoul]

The whole point is, so many of you are so willing to hang that girl out to dry and feed her to the wolves, when in fact, she was merely following orders. Right or wrong, that's what she was doing. And you as well as HS should understand that fact very well.

true-very true
but just like any other military member, we even as guards at a po-dunk military base here in southern maryland, are drilled with orders......but we are also obligated NOT to follow them if they are UNLAWFULL
i'll explain...
The use of deadly force is authorised if we...ourselves are witness to a threatning act....
say i'm standing at the gate and a car driving at a great speed is attempting to gain access, instead of stopping, the driver whips out a gun and tries to force his way on.....I HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT

say i'm standing at the gate.....a CAPTAIN pulls up and says the car behind him was had just ran over a little girl on 235, and as soon as it pulls up SHOOT THE DRIVER

now SHOOT THE DRIVER was a DIRECT ORDER FROM A CAPTAIN....
ask yourself......am i obligated by ORDER to shoot?


NO

it is an unlawfull order


now at the detention center



"ordered by a higher up"



"I'm giving you a direct order to force the inmates to have sex with each other"




sorry sir......that's unlawfull

 

[HollowSoul]

Have you ever received one? If so, what specific action did you take?

i'ts very mundane......but on my first cruise on the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT i was working on the catapults,
op-tempo was very high and during flight ops one day we had a F-14 on cat 4 fully armed and ready to launch...
When the AO (ordanance) pulls the pins to arm the aircraft...ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS ALLOWED IN FRONT OF THE AIRCRAFT!
well, AO's pulled the pins, and the tomcat went under tension, (catapult armed)

well we had a hangfire (catapult didnt release) my chief gave me the order to release the tomcat from the catapult..."direct order"

my reply,
NO....#1 it still has hot weapons
#2 it's still under tension and we need to bleed off the steam and sent the shuttle foreward.
his reply..."there is no time, we have to get this bird off the cat quickly
my reply..."i am not going to put me-you-the pilot-and half the flightdeck at risk just because you want the bird off the cat......if you want it off FOLLOW PROCEDURE, untill then it stayes right where it sits

 

[Ken King]

i'ts very mundane......but on my first cruise on the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT i was working on the catapults,
op-tempo was very high and during flight ops one day we had a F-14 on cat 4 fully armed and ready to launch...
When the AO (ordanance) pulls the pins to arm the aircraft...ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS ALLOWED IN FRONT OF THE AIRCRAFT!
well, AO's pulled the pins, and the tomcat went under tension, (catapult armed)

well we had a hangfire (catapult didnt release) my chief gave me the order to release the tomcat from the catapult..."direct order"

my reply,
NO....#1 it still has hot weapons
#2 it's still under tension and we need to bleed off the steam and sent the shuttle foreward.
his reply..."there is no time, we have to get this bird off the cat quickly
my reply..."i am not going to put me-you-the pilot-and half the flightdeck at risk just because you want the bird off the cat......if you want it off FOLLOW PROCEDURE, untill then it stayes right where it sits

I take it nothing adverse happened to you as your assessment of the safety issue at hand was correct, but what happened to the chief that gave you the unlawful order? Was he relieved of his position at the cat? How about what would have happened to you had you obeyed that order? Would a board of inquiry hold you liable or would you have been exonerated because of having received a direct order?

Now I take it you are slightly more intelligent then what has been disclosed of England, do you think her lack of mental capacity and her mental state at the time are mitigating factors? I mean from the way they paint this girl I don't think she is capable of discerning right from wrong on many matters.

 

[HollowSoul]

I take it nothing adverse happened to you as your assessment of the safety issue at hand was correct, but what happened to the chief that gave you the unlawful order? Was he relieved of his position at the cat? How about what would have happened to you had you obeyed that order? Would a board of inquiry hold you liable or would you have been exonerated because of having received a direct order?

Now I take it you are slightly more intelligent then what has been disclosed of England, do you think her lack of mental capacity and her mental state at the time are mitigating factors? I mean from the way they paint this girl I don't think she is capable of discerning right from wrong on many matters.

my chief tried to push a report chit and it went as far as the XO before it was shot down, ultimately my chief was relocated to the maintenance room and was transferred to another duty station about a month after we pulled back in from our deployment.

no to answer your Q about wether or not England should have used her better judgment....yes she should have....but maybe she wasn't capeable.
Peer pressure in that type of situation could have been insurmountable.
We in the nave try to guide ourselves with the code of Honor Courage and Commitment, now in liew of trying to glorify the service, i will not imbellish on how those 3 words impact me, but they or something similar should have been on the minds of ALL THAT WERE INVOLVED at the detention center..
yes she should be punnished....should she be punnished alone....no

 

[Ken King]

my chief tried to push a report chit and it went as far as the XO before it was shot down, ultimately my chief was relocated to the maintenance room and was transferred to another duty station about a month after we pulled back in from our deployment.

no to answer your Q about wether or not England should have used her better judgment....yes she should have....but maybe she wasn't capeable.
Peer pressure in that type of situation could have been insurmountable.
We in the nave try to guide ourselves with the code of Honor Courage and Commitment, now in liew of trying to glorify the service, i will not imbellish on how those 3 words impact me, but they or something similar should have been on the minds of ALL THAT WERE INVOLVED at the detention center..
yes she should be punnished....should she be punnished alone....no

Figures nothing was done to the chief, just shuttle him off onto someone else for them to worry about.

I seriously think that England was not capable of making the correct decision and as such the punishment should be commensurate with the circumstances of mitigation surrounding this case. Separation seems adequate for what was done on her part; prison seems drastic and I feel it serves no purpose other than to appease public opinion.

Those responsible for the guards conduct throughout the entire chain should be held accountable for the lack of preparation, training and guidance these troops were given. Additionally, the ringleaders of the abuses should be the ones getting the harshest punishment, not this pawn.

 

[Triggerfish]

Have you ever received one? If so, what specific action did you take?

Yup, I told the Chief, "no." He gave me a surprised look and I kept on doing my job." He later came back to me and told me that he was just "testing" me.

Yeah...... more like covering his own azz I'd say.

 

[Triggerfish]

Those responsible for the guards conduct throughout the entire chain should be held accountable for the lack of preparation, training and guidance these troops were given. Additionally, the ringleaders of the abuses should be the ones getting the harshest punishment, not this pawn.

I agree. However about England. Not knowing something is a crime doesn't usually get you off. I think people higher in the chain of command should get a stiffer punishment but she needs some of it too. Personally I'd think what she did would not be wisest thing to do. As a prison guard you should not be doing things that may make your job tougher by making your prisoners more disgruntled. You would be setting yourself up for a prison riot. As stated in the document many of the guards were not trained adequetly.
However being an idiot isn't a crime she should get a light sentence.


BTW no where on this thread did I state that she should be given a harsh sentence or hung out to dry by herself.

 

[Triggerfish]

thank you thank you God......I just finished my last "required" college assignment for the semester and sent it off via e-mail. No classes and assignments until the summer session that begins in June. A load off my back.

 

[Ken King]

I agree. However about England. Not knowing something is a crime doesn't usually get you off. I think people higher in the chain of command should get a stiffer punishment but she needs some of it too. Personally I'd think what she did would not be wisest thing to do. As a prison guard you should not be doing things that may make your job tougher by making your prisoners more disgruntled. You would be setting yourself up for a prison riot. As stated in the document many of the guards were not trained adequetly.
However being an idiot isn't a crime she should get a light sentence.


BTW no where on this thread did I state that she should be given a harsh sentence or hung out to dry by herself.

And I don't think I have implied or said that you made such a statement either. I am just giving my "feel" of what I think should happen as we banter back and forth. Booting her out of the service is enough for me and ensures that she will never be in a position to do it again. It is my belief that she didn’t possess the mental capacity to be a soldier in the first place. I’m sure you, like I, have come across many that just shouldn’t be in the military to begin with. But that is another can of worms all to itself.

The only reason I care to speak out for England is that they seem to wanting to “make an example” of her. This I feel is against the reasons behind the intent of discipline.

 

[Triggerfish]

And I don't think I have implied or said that you made such a statement either.

No, not you but someone else did.

 

[Triggerfish]

Yup, I told the Chief, "no." He gave me a surprised look and I kept on doing my job." He later came back to me and told me that he was just "testing" me.

Yeah...... more like covering his own azz I'd say.

We were in the Gulf for Iraqi Freedom on the Kitty Hawk. The chief wanted me to dump fuel and hydraulic fluid over the side. Yeah....get caught and I personally not the government get to pay the fines. Also I'm really into Scuba diving and polluting the marine environment really makes me mad. I hear there is some good diving there as long as you avoid the polluted areas and the sea snakes.