Should Non-Christians celebrate Christmas?

[mAlice]

Lambert received an AB degree with high honors in physics and distinction in mathematics from San Diego State University in June 1954. After two years of graduate study in Physics and Electrical Engineering at Stanford University, (1954-1956), he joined the staff of SRI International (formerly Stanford Research Institute), in Menlo Park, California where he remained almost continuously for the next 30 years. He left his position at SRI as a Senior Research Physicist in 1987 to pursue small-scale independent geophysical consulting services, and to devote the bulk of his time to Bible teaching, writing and Christian counseling.


As an ultraconservative assumption, let C = 3, x = 5, and n = 16.56. These constants correspond to an average family of six children, an average generation of 100 years and an average lifespan of 500 years. On this basis the world population at the time of the Flood would have been 235 million people. This probably represents in a gross underestimate of the numbers who actually perished in the Flood.

Multiplication was probably more rapid than assumed in this calculation, especially in the earliest centuries of the antediluvian epoch. For example, if the average family size were 8, instead of 6, and the length of a generation 93 years, instead of 100, the population at the time of Adam's death, 930 years after his creation, would already have been 2,800,000. At these rates, the population at the time of the Deluge would have been 137 billion! Even if we use rates appropriate for the present world (x = 1 and C = 1.5), over 3 billion people could easily have been on the earth at the time of Noah."

World Population since Creation

 

[mAlice]

To bad he didnt read the verse he quoted (you'll notice he doesnt read much of the Bible):

So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD​

He is told the Lord wiped everything from the earth, except for Noah

I don't think he reads much of anything.

 

[Nucklesack]

What does this mean?

Noah is the tenth generation listed from Adam.

NOW This_misrepresentation wants to follow the Bible literaly. When you point out the impossibility of the Noah story, where did the water come from or go, then all of sudden the Ark story becomes an allusion.

Of course, one could argue, the reason for the Evilness of man is thanks to the incest starting from Cain. But that would run counter from sparing only Noah and his family of 8 (starting over again from a small gene pool).

 

[mAlice]

Seems unlikely but possible.

Again, it doesn't address the issue that God made the judgement, and I don't judge God's judgement. I've repeatedly said, "and, even if there were pregnant women...." - thus stipulating that it is possible.

There's still no point for you to make. You claim the babies in the womb as innocent, and I ask you by what judge. The Judge that judged them claims they're not innocent, if they even exist, by wiping all of mankind except Noah and his family from the earth.

:shrug: Doesn't seem hard to comprehend to me.....

Interestingly, your god knew before he allowed humans to procreate, that he would one day wipe out the entire population. Can you say loving, kind, compassionate?

Then, he allowed the earth to be populated again, so he could once again wipe out humanity for it's multitude of sins (real or imagined, because babies can't really sin), even though he knew they would sin again.

Loving, kind, compassionate? I'm just not seein' it.

 

[Nucklesack]

Okay. I give. You're the smartest person on the planet.

And here is where cherry picking which verses you want to take literally comes back to haunt you.

Per the Bible (this are in order of geneology):

• Adam lived 930 Years
• Seth lived 912 Years
• Enos lived 905 Years
• Cainan lived 910 years
• Mahalaleel lived 895 years
• Jared lived 962 years
• Enoch Lived 365
• Methuselah lived 969 years
• Lamech lived 777 years
• Noah was 600 when he entered the Ark

While there is some overlap, there would have been more than plenty of time for the Population to expand past a few hundred lives

 

[mAlice]

You have to read all of it:

Gen 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you.​

Oh, well that changes everything!

 

[foodcritic]

Interestingly, your god knew before he allowed humans to procreate, that he would one day wipe out the entire population. Can you say loving, kind, compassionate?

Then, he allowed the earth to be populated again, so he could once again wipe out humanity for it's multitude of sins (real or imagined, because babies can't really sin), even though he knew they would sin again.

Loving, kind, compassionate? I'm just not seein' it.

AND THEN God created a rock so big he could not move it and then he made a pin with angels dancing on it that no one could count.....

 

[mAlice]

He suggested only Noah would be saved. If you read more, God said who all would be saved.

When I read it, I really didn't think he meant "just Noah". I really thought he meant "Noah and his family". You really have trouble with that, don't you?

 

[Nucklesack]

Oh, well that changes everything!

Jesus punching Christ i didnt know i had to specify Noah and his family

 

[mAlice]

Jesus punching Christ i didnt know i had to specify Noah and his family

Apparently, there is nothing "understood" for the sake of a smoother discussion.

 

[PsyOps]

Interestingly, your god knew before he allowed humans to procreate, that he would one day wipe out the entire population. Can you say loving, kind, compassionate?

Once again you completely ignore the fact that God deals with things from a spiritual standpoint. Wiping our physical lives is a big deal to us because we feel it's all we have. So therefore God is being cruel to us. But God knows that life does end there. He has the complete understanding of the breadth of life both physical and spiritual and our physical deaths are of no consequence to Him.

Then, he allowed the earth to be populated again, so he could once again wipe out humanity for it's multitude of sins (real or imagined, because babies can't really sin), even though he knew they would sin again.

Loving, kind, compassionate? I'm just not seein' it.

You're not seeing it because you are thinking of it in terms of what we do, rather than what we are by nature in the eyes of God. Of course babies haven't committed sin yet. However, every person, in the eyes of God is flawed because of the Adam and Eve account. Not a literal Adam and Eve, but man that decided to rebel and sin against God. I like to think of it like a cookie mold. It was a perfect mold that made perfect cookies in the eyes of the baker. Then one day the mold got dented and every cookie that came out after that had a flaw in it. In the eyes of the baker they were still cookies, but now flawed. The dent in the cookie is the sin by nature.

Maybe not the best of analogies, but every person is born with this sin, this flaw. This flaw causes them to eventual commit sinful acts. There is no escaping it. Why would God allow this to happen? :shrug: Ask God.

 

[Nucklesack]

Once again you completely ignore the fact that God deals with things from a spiritual standpoint. Wiping our physical lives is a big deal to us because we feel it's all we have. So therefore God is being cruel to us. But God knows that life does end there. He has the complete understanding of the breadth of life both physical and spiritual and our physical deaths are of no consequence to Him.



You're not seeing it because you are thinking of it in terms of what we do, rather than what we are by nature in the eyes of God. Of course babies haven't committed sin yet. However, every person, in the eyes of God is flawed because of the Adam and Eve account. Not a literal Adam and Eve, but man that decided to rebel and sin against God. I like to think of it like a cookie mold. It was a perfect mold that made perfect cookies in the eyes of the baker. Then one day the mold got dented and every cookie that came out after that had a flaw in it. In the eyes of the baker they were still cookies, but now flawed. The dent in the cookie is the sin by nature.

Maybe not the best of analogies, but every person is born with this sin, this flaw. This flaw causes them to eventual commit sinful acts. There is no escaping it. Why would God allow this to happen? :shrug: Ask God.

Sorry, if its not a literal Adam & Eve then what is the basis for Original Sin. While you didnt call it that, that is what your describing, unless you think we have the Potential to be flawed.

 

[ItalianScallion]

you haven't even given an interpretation other than to say that verse tells you to judge others. I disaagree with that assertion. The fact that you ignore jesus' larger point and hang on to your pitful justification or your judgement and intolerence is the story......

WTH dude??!! Telling you what the verse means IS the explanation! You claim to have read the book and can't figure it out? There are times to judge but never self righteously. That's His "larger point".

Heres where the fallacy of freewill, and Gods omniscience comes in.
If you truly had freewill, the fate of the children wouldnt be set, and they could have changed their ways. Your just, rightous and loving God destroyed them before they could exert their freewill on their own future.
If God was truly omniscient, he would have known long before, about those evil sinful awful kids and their parents. Why did he wait for them to be born before wiping them out? Why did he give them the chance to change their evil & sinful ways (by allowign them to be born) but then take it back and wipe them out before they could make amends?

The only fallacy here is your inability to understand. God already knew how they'd turn out but, since you don't believe in God, you don't and won't know this. He would NEVER destroy innocent life through His judgment.
You're entire statement is secular (chicken or the egg). They could NOT have changed their ways! God already knew that they would grow up to be evil so He stopped it. If they WERE going to change their ways, God would NOT have destroyed them! Read up on Ninevah in Jonah 3 and see how God had compassion on them when THEY decided to change their ways.
Now, you can't understand this either but God actually saved the children's lives from an eternity in Hell. How? If God had let them live they would surely have become evil like their parents. Instead, because they were too young to be accountable, they're with God now. (How bout it mAlice? Can't hear you!)
If God wanted only good people to live, there would be no need for most of what He created. THEN you would be right; NO free will! We'd all be drones controlled by God, and love would be controlled and not freely chosen and that's not love.

If god saw fit to kill the unborn babies during the flood, what makes you so sure that he doesn't cause women to make the decision to abort?

I just answered this for you! Geezzz!

Interestingly, your god knew before he allowed humans to procreate, that he would one day wipe out the entire population. Can you say loving, kind, compassionate?
Then, he allowed the earth to be populated again, so he could once again wipe out humanity for it's multitude of sins (real or imagined, because babies can't really sin), even though he knew they would sin again.
Loving, kind, compassionate? I'm just not seein' it.

God is giving you a zillion chances right here everytime one of us posts something about His compassion & forgiveness. Your free will chimes in and says NO! One day you'll die and God will say: "I gave you a zillion chances to change but you said no". It's a sin to reject God after all Jesus did for you. You're sooo foolish lady! You'd rather agrue yourself right into Hell instead of taking the life preserver...
I guess you also think that God shouldn't have charged these children for future crimes, right? According to your logic this is racial profiling... According to Nucklesack, God violated their free will. What you BOTH don't want to see is that God knows everything! This is why He can and does make the decisions that He does. His actions are justified even if we can't understand or accept them.

 

[Nucklesack]

WTH dude??!! Telling you what the verse means IS the explanation! You claim to have read the book and can't figure it out? There are times to judge but never self righteously. That's His "larger point".

The only fallacy here is your inability to understand. God already knew how they'd turn out but, since you don't believe in God, you don't and won't know this. He would NEVER destroy innocent life through His judgment.
You're entire statement is secular (chicken or the egg). They could NOT have changed their ways! God already knew that they would grow up to be evil so He stopped it. If they WERE going to change their ways, God would NOT have destroyed them! Read up on Ninevah in Jonah 3 and see how God had compassion on them when THEY decided to change their ways.
Now, you can't understand this either but God actually saved the children's lives from an eternity in Hell. How? If God had let them live they would surely have become evil like their parents. Instead, because they were too young to be accountable, they're with God now. (How bout it mAlice? Can't hear you!)
If God wanted only good people to live, there would be no need for most of what He created. THEN you would be right; NO free will! We'd all be drones controlled by God, and love would be controlled and not freely chosen and that's not love.

I just answered this for you! Geezzz!

God is giving you a zillion chances right here everytime one of us posts something about His compassion & forgiveness. Your free will chimes in and says NO! One day you'll die and God will say: "I gave you a zillion chances to change but you said no". It's a sin to reject God after all Jesus did for you. You're sooo foolish lady! You'd rather agrue yourself right into Hell instead of taking the life preserver...
I guess you also think that God shouldn't have charged these children for future crimes, right? According to your logic this is racial profiling... According to Nucklesack, God violated their free will. What you BOTH don't want to see is that God knows everything! This is why He can and does make the decisions that He does. His actions are justified even if we can't understand or accept them.

Spin it like you want, your the one trying to fit your God into YOUR myopic belief of who/what he/it is.

Pre-Noah he knew everyone that existed was going to be evil and allowed them to live. He knew that the innocent children would grow up to do evil, even though they hadnt at the time.

In order to "fix" this he covered: the entire planet, some of the planet, an area of the planet, someplace with Water.

And then allowed Noah (and his family since some have issues infering them) and his family to live so they could repopulate: all of nature, some of nature, parts of nature, and humankind

Knowing that the second go-around would also sin and be wicked, and would have to eventually sacrifice his son (for Christians) in order to once again give Mankind a chance

Why?

Why not get it right the first time?

 

[PsyOps]

Sorry, if its not a literal Adam & Eve then what is the basis for Original Sin. While you didnt call it that, that is what your describing, unless you think we have the Potential to be flawed.

What you would define as a flaw I call an integral part of what God put in us: Choice. It appears obvious to me that God did not want man to be a bunch of mind-numb robots that couldn’t think for themselves and make choices that may be good or bad for them. What sort of loving God would deprive his creation of such a thing as choice?

The origin of sin is us and our choices. With or without God we have certain rules don’t we? Don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery… Civilized people know these things are wrong. You don’t need a God to tell you that. But, we (who believe) believe God is pure and without sin and he cannot exist within our sinful nature. Sin is not an act, it's literally defined as "separation from God". Our defiant nature to remain pure separates us from God.

Now, I don’t believe in the literal interpretation of Adam and Eve. I believe they are the explanation what became a civilized people; a people that became aware of good and bad/right and wrong. If you want me to explain when this happened… I don’t know. History says the first known real civilization were the Mesopotamians. Coincidentally this is the same area Genesis gives us the Adam and Eve story. So, I don’t believe sin was a single act of defiance against God; it was a culmination of the society of people becoming more aware of their self-serving potential and through this potential started to believe they were above God and question God’s authority and even question God’s existence.

 

[thatguy]

WTH dude??!! Telling you what the verse means IS the explanation! You claim to have read the book and can't figure it out? There are times to judge but never self righteously. That's His "larger point".

please show your work....

it is clar what you THINK it says, but you certainly haven't backed that up with anything. the single passage you have pointed to in no way indicates the larger point of christianity is for its followers to "judge self righteously"

I read it and the preceding and following portions and see no indication that those passages command christians to judge others. like i said, if you do, show your work.....

 

[mAlice]

please show your work....

it is clar what you THINK it says, but you certainly haven't backed that up with anything. the single passage you have pointed to in no way indicates the larger point of christianity is for its followers to "judge self righteously"

I read it and the preceding and following portions and see no indication that those passages command christians to judge others. like i said, if you do, show your work.....

I can appreciate her confusion.

John 12:47 As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

John 9:39 Jesus said, For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

 

[thatguy]

I can appreciate her confusion.

John 12:47 As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

John 9:39 Jesus said, For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

in either case the judge was the person claiming to be god, not the regular man on the street, i still dont see how she can take the reading that gods followers should be doing any judging

 

[ItalianScallion]

please show your work....
it is clar what you THINK it says, but you certainly haven't backed that up with anything. the single passage you have pointed to in no way indicates the larger point of christianity is for its followers to "judge self righteously"
I read it and the preceding and following portions and see no indication that those passages command christians to judge others. like i said, if you do, show your work.....

I'll give you some but you won't believe them. You'll put your own secular twist on them. You are pathetic! I did not say the bolded statement above! That YOU CAN'T READ is the problem! The last 3 words in my post were: ...never self righteously. You have your own agenda, it's clear to see but try these:

Ezekiel 3 v 18-19 tells us to observe that someone is sinning or lost and warn them of it. How can we warn them if we don't make a judgment about their spiritual condition?

Jonah was told to speak judgment againts the Ninevites.

Matthew 3 v 7-10 John the Baptist judged people.

Matthew 7 v 5 Jesus said: "first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will be able to remove the speck from your brother's eye". Want to explain the second part of that?? Being able to remove the speck from your brother's eye??

Not about judging, but here's two for any of you who think you know more than God: Matthew 11 v 25. "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth because you have hidden these things from the wise & learned, and revealed them to little children".
Matthew 13 v 11 "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them..."
When I say you don't understand because you're not saved, I am backed up by these verses. YOUR self righteous attitude mirrors that of the Pharisees, Saducees & teachers back then whether you admit it or not.

Mark 4 v 21 & 22: "Do you bring in a lamp and put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on it's stand? For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open". How can I figure out that you're headed to Hell and make an effort to warn you if I haven't made a "judgment" or decision about your spiritual condition? The "lamp" is Word that God has given me to shine upon your spiritual condition. This is why you folks hate me so much here.

John 5 v 45-47; Moses accused the people and Jesus backed him up.

John 7 v 24. Jesus was verbally slapping the "educated" Jews about breaking the Sabbath law. They could circumcise a child on the Sabbath but He was chastized for healing a man on it? He said: "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment". They were judging Him and He had no problem except that they were wrong in their assessment of Him.

1 Timothy 4 v 1-6: 1"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

2 Timothy 4 v 2: "1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry".

Titus 1 v 10-11: "...those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain".

Titus 2 v 15: "Encourage & rebuke with all authority."
You'll have fun with these I'm sure.

 

[thatguy]

I'll give you some but you won't believe them. You'll put your own secular twist on them. You are pathetic! I did not say the bolded statement above! That YOU CAN'T READ is the problem! The last 3 words in my post were: ...never self righteously. You have your own agenda, it's clear to see but try these:

Ezekiel 3 v 18-19 tells us to observe that someone is sinning or lost and warn them of it. How can we warn them if we don't make a judgment about their spiritual condition?

Jonah was told to speak judgment againts the Ninevites.

Matthew 3 v 7-10 John the Baptist judged people.

Matthew 7 v 5 Jesus said: "first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will be able to remove the speck from your brother's eye". Want to explain the second part of that?? Being able to remove the speck from your brother's eye??

Not about judging,

talk about spin.....

that you can take "Matthew 7 v 5 Jesus said: "first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will be able to remove the speck from your brother's eye". " to mean that you are directed to judge others is quite retarded. Obviously the meaning is that you shouldn't judge others, as your judging is the very plank in your own eye. Just like every child is taught that passage means in sunday school. Your spin is your own

and i stopped reading your distractions where i stopped quoting you. lets stay on track considering you are having enough trouble with the one topic.