Should Non-Christians celebrate Christmas?

[mAlice]

Last time I checked, God doesn't give personal revelation to people anymore. (my pentecostal friends would disagree obviously)


(I also can't believe this thread is still going too)

When children die, christians say "it's because god wanted the child", or something to that effect. So doesn't it stand to reason that he may also be taking a child in the manner of abortion as well? Does he reveal anything to them in those cases?

 

[mAlice]

I guess that would depend on whether the child dies of natural causes, or a combination vacuum/blender setup.

Psalm 137:9 Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.

 

[mAlice]

2 Kings 8:12 Hazael said, "Why does my lord weep?" Then he answered, "Because I know the evil that you will do to the sons of Israel: their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword, and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up."

Isaiah 13:16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.

 

[MissKitty]

Do you have anything to offer to this discussion?

Nope. I'm just here to laugh and kill time.

 

[mAlice]

Perhaps you could provide some context around that, to explain what it is that is being spoken of?

Look it up. I did.

 

[mAlice]

So, like the flood (but on a decidely smaller scale), or like the cities S & G, this was God doing this - not mankind doing it to each other. For punishment for the deeds of the people involved.

Again, are you judging God by your standards? Are you holding God to the rules he sets for mankind? Who are we, as humans, to judge God?

I don't believe in gods, so it's impossible to hold "him" to any standard. You, however, do believe, so I'm showing you what it is you believe in.

 

[mAlice]

So, since you don't believe in God, then this never happened, and therefore there is nothing for you to have an issue with I'm quite well aware. Thanks, though. Thing is, I go a bit deeper, so I understand more of what's being said.

You're an all or nothing sort, aren't you? I don't believe in gods. I never said I didn't believe in the bible as an historical document, though somewhat skewed, and written to be a tool to control people. I also believe that a man named Jesus most likely existed, but I don't believe he was the son of a god. I believe if he did exist that he adopted traits of god like personalities that came before him. I believe that he was a rebel and an anarchist.

I believe that a long time ago men did horrible things to each other, just as they do today. They were barbarians and they went to war over their beliefs and territories. I believe that they, as much as people today, needed to create an excuse for their behavior.

btw, I don't think you go deeper at all. I find you to be quite shallow and narrow minded.

 

[Nucklesack]

2 Kings 8:12 Hazael said, "Why does my lord weep?" Then he answered, "Because I know the evil that you will do to the sons of Israel: their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword, and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up."

So much for the Freewill to change your fate

 

[mAlice]

When propagating a religion where proof is not available, one that contains logical absurdities, it is essential that the logical processes of the mind be short-circuited. Paul attempted this with his facile quips, "The wisdom of the world is foolishness with God." (I Cor. 3:19), and "The foolishness of God is wiser than men." (I Cor. 1:25). This summarily rejects all logical quandaries as if they're of no consequence, and saves the trouble of having to explain them away. We are merely to trust that, as I Cor. 2:14 informs us, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned." In other words, you're incapable of understanding the "truth" of their doctrines because you're working with a sinful, carnal mind, rather than a spiritual one. Once you give up and give in, then you'll understand. This inverts the process of knowing from "see it to believe it" to "believe it, then you'll see it." But should one expect to gain real knowledge subsequently, Paul crushes that by informing us "his ways [are] past finding out!" (Romans 11:33) So don't even try--just comply.

Dissecting Christianity's Mind Snaring System

 

[mAlice]

Well, man didn't do this to other people, per the story as told. So, either you are putting your own version of the story in, or you are not believing the story as told.

If I am shallow and narrow minded, and you are actually deeper into the story, why was the lord crying? What misdeeds had mankind done? (those are two very different questions, not looking for the same answer to each)

Man didn't do what? Kill each other? Yes, they did. Which story?

I don't know why he cried. Maybe he felt bad. Hell, mothers today that kill their babies cry. Why?

 

[mAlice]

The psalms verse is in reference to a specific story of the Bible. The children killed in the reference were not killed by mankind, but by God.

This is why I asked your for the context of the line.Just a suggestion, but I would dig deeper into the story before drawing the conclusion you've obviously drawn.

That's your answer for killing babies? Dig deeper? I don't care who kills babies, or in the name of what god, it doesn't make it any better than abortion. Your god supposedly flooded the earth, again taking out innocent people (men, women and children) in the process. I believe there was a flood, but I'd never claim to be associated with anyone responsible, as if that were even possible, but that's what christians do. They associate themselves with a book about how to do all kinds of horrible things, and have an excuse for it, or even be commanded to do it. That's kinda' like "the devil made me do it", don't ya' think?

 

[thatguy]

Version is irrelevant but I'd better restate my point. The 5 books that Moses wrote have been around longer than any other since they were written shortly after the creation. I meant to say that the Bible has been the most printed book of all times; More copies than any other book.
And God is eternal; no one created Him.
I gave you ample proof; you chose to ignore it.

I did back it up. You're just not able to understand it. See mAlice's siggy line...

like i said, i dont think you are reading that verse correctly.
The fact that you can't defend your reading tells the tale.

 

[PsyOps]

So, it's okay to wipe out all the babies in a village if your god commands it, (because they are born of sin) but it's not okay to have an abortion.

Got it.

I don’t claim to see the complete inner-workings of God’s will. I don’t know why God would order the killing of babies in a village for being born into sin (I’d like to see your exact reference for this so I can better answer to that though). I don’t know why God would allow such an horrible thing like abortion to exist on this earth. I don’t know why God would allow such an horrible thing like war to exist. I don’t know why God would cause me to believe it’s justified to put someone to death for murder.

Why would God allow his only Son, who was without sin, to be murdered? Well, if you’ve studied the bible as you claim you have, you’d know the answer to that. God has a far different view of sin than we do. God has a completely different view of life and death than we do. The limits of our physical lives and minds can’t allow us to comprehend that our physical deaths are of no consequence to Him whether it be a baby or a 90 year old. In His eternal existence (if we can even comprehend such a spans of time) our lives are a blink of an eye. And it's not our physical lives He is concerned about; it's our spiritual.

So whether I see it as okay to kill babies in a village or babies in the womb is not the issue when it comes to our spiritual lives or deaths and whether we are committing sin in the flesh or our spiritual sin (separation from God). I do ask the “why” questions to God all the time, and I try to seek the answers. But I always come back to what life really is both in the flesh and in the spirit. I feel I have come to a certain peace and understanding of the difference between the two. But as you mentioned in another post, there is a lot I don’t understand.

I’m not in here beating my chest with all the answers and pointing a judgmental finger at people that challenge my opinion. You have valid questions. And I completely understand how these things can cause someone to lose faith and question the validity of a God. That hasn’t happened to me. Most of these things have actually solidified who God is to me. He is a God that has life and death in His complete control. And because we don’t understand why certain horrible things happens doesn’t diminish that; to me it actually proves all-the-more how we are out of control and God is in control.

That's my short answer

 

[ItalianScallion]

So, it's okay to wipe out all the babies in a village if your god commands it, (because they are born of sin) but it's not okay to have an abortion.

That's right. Ok, you want an answer? Here it is. You won't believe it so I wonder why I waste my time. God knew that these kids would grow up to be evil & sinful just like their parents and He didn't want that. The wiping out of entire cities or groups of people was a purification of the land by God. He has the right if He so chooses. It's not because they were born in/of sin. I told you this before. Babies are NOT accountable to God until they reach a certain age so, if they die before that age, they go to Heaven. Yeah; God is soo mean isnt He??!!

When children die, christians say "it's because god wanted the child", or something to that effect. So doesn't it stand to reason that he may also be taking a child in the manner of abortion as well? Does he reveal anything to them in those cases?

God does not contradict His own teachings. He doesn't need abortion to take a child. You're putting man's whacko ideas into God's ways. People say that "God wanted the child" to soothe their own minds.

That's your answer for killing babies? Dig deeper? I don't care who kills babies, or in the name of what god, it doesn't make it any better than abortion. Your god supposedly flooded the earth, again taking out innocent people (men, women and children) in the process. I believe there was a flood, but I'd never claim to be associated with anyone responsible, as if that were even possible, but that's what christians do. They associate themselves with a book about how to do all kinds of horrible things, and have an excuse for it, or even be commanded to do it. That's kinda' like "the devil made me do it", don't ya' think?

The people that were killed in the flood were NOT "innocent people" mAlice. Geez woman! READ it! They were evil; soo evil that "God was grieved that He made them". (You don't have to be spiritual to understand that one. Tee hee). He only found 8 righteous people on earth at that time. He was very justified in His actions.
He did the same in Sodom & Gomorrah, only with fire. Abraham argued to save them if God could find 10 righteous but He couldn't.
You can also read about how God destroyed the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15. He destroyed their "men, women, children & infants, cattle & sheep, camels & donkeys". He's soo cool!

 

[ItalianScallion]

like i said, i dont think you are reading that verse correctly.
The fact that you can't defend your reading tells the tale.

No, the fact that YOU can't understand it tells the tale.
Tell me how I misread the verse please...

 

[thatguy]

No, the fact that YOU can't understand it tells the tale.
Tell me how I misread the verse please...

you haven't even given an interpretation other than to say that verse tells you to judge others. I disaagree with that assertion. The fact that you ignore jesus' larger point and hang on to your pitful justification or your judgement and intolerence is the story......

 

[Nucklesack]

That's right. Ok, you want an answer? Here it is. You won't believe it so I wonder why I waste my time. God knew that these kids would grow up to be evil & sinful just like their parents and He didn't want that. The wiping out of entire cities or groups of people was a purification of the land by God. He has the right if He so chooses. It's not because they were born in/of sin. I told you this before. Babies are NOT accountable to God until they reach a certain age so, if they die before that age, they go to Heaven. Yeah; God is soo mean isnt He??!!

Heres where the fallacy of freewill, and Gods omniscience comes in.

If you truly had freewill, the fate of the children wouldnt be set, and they could have changed their ways. Your just, rightous and loving God destroyed them before they could exert their freewill on their own future.

If God was truly omniscient, he would have known long before, about those evil sinful awful kids and their parents. Why did he wait for them to be born before wiping them out? Why did he give them the chance to change their evil & sinful ways (by allowign them to be born) but then take it back and wipe them out before they could make amends?

God does not contradict His own teachings. He doesn't need abortion to take a child. You're putting man's whacko ideas into God's ways. People say that "God wanted the child" to soothe their own minds.

You can think God doesnt contradict him/itself, but the book used to learn God's word sure does.

The people that were killed in the flood were NOT "innocent people" mAlice. Geez woman! READ it! They were evil; soo evil that "God was grieved that He made them". (You don't have to be spiritual to understand that one. Tee hee). He only found 8 righteous people on earth at that time. He was very justified in His actions.
He did the same in Sodom & Gomorrah, only with fire. Abraham argued to save them if God could find 10 righteous but He couldn't.
You can also read about how God destroyed the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15. He destroyed their "men, women, children & infants, cattle & sheep, camels & donkeys". He's soo cool!

:rollseyes:

 

[mAlice]

None of your circular arguments hold any water.

I don't find that argument circular at all. It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Nucklesack]

I don't find that argument circular at all. It makes perfect sense to me.

N/M post before i realized his wont be an actual response to my comment but some non-sequitor without any benefit to the discussion.

 

[mAlice]

There is no reason to assume they weren't already evil, since that's what the story says.

Innocent babies, who were not old enough to think for themselves, and had to communicate hunger and pain by crying, evil...because the story says so.

Got it.