Slavery reparations gaining momentum

[Coaster]

Is there any other politician, besides John Conyers, that would go along with this?

Barack Obama, Ted Kennedy, Diane Feistein... liberals love it.

 

[bcp]

That video cracked me up.

I wonder how close to true it would be

 

[MMDad]

Sometimes I wish that we would get invaded by another country and be forced to fight together for this country in this country. Maybe that's the only way we will ever look at each other as brothers and sisters instead of "us" and "them."

There were black soldiers fighting alongside whites as far back as the Civil War. That didn't do anything to lessen the divide between the races.

The current de facto segregation is based on history, but I see it being perpetuated by the activists more than anyone. When we hear Nagin calling for a "chocolate" city, is he working to break down the barriers, or is he reinforcing the barriers between races?

 

[SamSpade]

That will not happen until black folks

What can black folks do? Almost to a man, every time I discuss this issue, every black man or woman will tell me that racism is a WHITE person's problem - not theirs. The consistent refrain is that the problem will go away only when white people decide to stop it - blacks share no culpability in it.

What do you see as something black folks need to do?

and white folks can do something that I very rarely see here on these forums, try to walk in the other guy's shoes, try to see their point of view and try to understand. Instead, we tend to attack, refer to "them" or "they" and in doing so, drive the wedge even further.

Everyone has trouble with this; I can't imagine what it's like to walk into an establishment and have the store detective immediately think I'm out to rob the place. I can't imagine walking into an interview for a job I'm highly qualified, and have the interviewer presume I probably slid past the requirements for my degree and I'm probably not skilled or professional enough for the job - BEFORE I utter a syllable. I haven't the faintest idea of what it's like to be a black man.

I DO however, know what it's like, to be a white man in a neighborhood that is nearly entirely black. I know what it's like to have store employees pretend I'm not at the register - and then proceed to wait on black customers instead - and thos goes on for an hour. I've been in stores where the staff laughed as I left, because they were able to do this to me. I know what it's like to work on a crew where I was the only white man there - and be discriminated against and ridiculed by my co-workers. I know what it's like, to be on a high school track team and have the coach tell me he wasn't going to BOTHER with the white team members, because he could win meets without them. I've been harassed and attacked in black neighborhoods - once while riding my bike, a small gang chase me and some got their hands on my bike WHILE I WAS RIDING AWAY. While I have no doubt that black men probably have felt intimidated in white neighborhoods - I know few white men who felt SAFE going through a black one.

While black men may sense wrath when they're out and about with a white woman - it works both ways. I've rarely dated a black woman where I DIDN'T encounter smart-mouthed treatment from blacks who don't think I should be dating a black woman.

In short, racism is very prevalent both ways - it just happens more one way, because whites OUTNUMBER blacks by about 5 or 6 to 1.

Sometimes I wish that we would get invaded by another country and be forced to fight together for this country in this country. Maybe that's the only way we will ever look at each other as brothers and sisters instead of "us" and "them."

I don't think that would make a difference. WW2 didn't change it one bit - as far as the NATION was concerned. Wartime may affect comrades in arms that way, but it doesn't affect civilians, and when the war is over, people revert right back to the way that makes them the most comfortable.

What ALWAYS befuddles me, is this - I know of almost no one who harbors resentment and hatred towards Asians. *Almost*. Other races, there's a little here and there - I know a handful who don't like Native Americans, or Arabs, or Indians - but it's not like the animosity that exists between blacks and whites.

I think blacks need to resolve their issues over race within the next generation - because DEMOGRAPHICS are going to erase their voice. Hispanics are already the largest minority in this country, and eventually, THEIR voice will drown out those of black groups. When Hispanics are also at the same table demanding affirmative action and so forth - and they will - the power that black groups wield will diminish.

 

[Nupe2]

There were black soldiers fighting alongside whites as far back as the Civil War. That didn't do anything to lessen the divide between the races.

The current de facto segregation is based on history, but I see it being perpetuated by the activists more than anyone. When we hear Nagin calling for a "chocolate" city, is he working to break down the barriers, or is he reinforcing the barriers between races?

Black soldiers fought in segregated units. They also fought against Americans from the south, not invaders from a foreign land. Different situation entirely.

His comments were out of line for someone elected to represent all of the people of his community. But I think you're pointing out Mayor Nagin's comments is symptomatic of our "problem." It puts us back in the "he said, she said" mode versus a true dialogue. Instead of asking why he said what he said, the first reaction is to criticize rather than investigate. Granted, most of us don't have the time or energy to investigate stuff like this but there is likely a back story that isn't presented on the nightly news or Yahoo. We might even find that the speaker is just an idot and should be discounted. We might also find that the speaker is someone speaking from their heart and possibly not choosing the same language as you or I to express themselves.

It's always easier to take the former step. I just wish we all had time or took the time to take the latter.

 

[Nupe2]

What can black folks do? Almost to a man, every time I discuss this issue, every black man or woman will tell me that racism is a WHITE person's problem - not theirs. The consistent refrain is that the problem will go away only when white people decide to stop it - blacks share no culpability in it.

What do you see as something black folks need to do?



Everyone has trouble with this; I can't imagine what it's like to walk into an establishment and have the store detective immediately think I'm out to rob the place. I can't imagine walking into an interview for a job I'm highly qualified, and have the interviewer presume I probably slid past the requirements for my degree and I'm probably not skilled or professional enough for the job - BEFORE I utter a syllable. I haven't the faintest idea of what it's like to be a black man.

I DO however, know what it's like, to be a white man in a neighborhood that is nearly entirely black. I know what it's like to have store employees pretend I'm not at the register - and then proceed to wait on black customers instead - and thos goes on for an hour. I've been in stores where the staff laughed as I left, because they were able to do this to me. I know what it's like to work on a crew where I was the only white man there - and be discriminated against and ridiculed by my co-workers. I know what it's like, to be on a high school track team and have the coach tell me he wasn't going to BOTHER with the white team members, because he could win meets without them. I've been harassed and attacked in black neighborhoods - once while riding my bike, a small gang chase me and some got their hands on my bike WHILE I WAS RIDING AWAY. While I have no doubt that black men probably have felt intimidated in white neighborhoods - I know few white men who felt SAFE going through a black one.

While black men may sense wrath when they're out and about with a white woman - it works both ways. I've rarely dated a black woman where I DIDN'T encounter smart-mouthed treatment from blacks who don't think I should be dating a black woman.

In short, racism is very prevalent both ways - it just happens more one way, because whites OUTNUMBER blacks by about 5 or 6 to 1.



I don't think that would make a difference. WW2 didn't change it one bit - as far as the NATION was concerned. Wartime may affect comrades in arms that way, but it doesn't affect civilians, and when the war is over, people revert right back to the way that makes them the most comfortable.

What ALWAYS befuddles me, is this - I know of almost no one who harbors resentment and hatred towards Asians. *Almost*. Other races, there's a little here and there - I know a handful who don't like Native Americans, or Arabs, or Indians - but it's not like the animosity that exists between blacks and whites.

I think blacks need to resolve their issues over race within the next generation - because DEMOGRAPHICS are going to erase their voice. Hispanics are already the largest minority in this country, and eventually, THEIR voice will drown out those of black groups. When Hispanics are also at the same table demanding affirmative action and so forth - and they will - the power that black groups wield will diminish.

I believe I've been misquoted!

 

[mainman]

Sometimes I wish that we would get invaded by another country and be forced to fight together for this country in this country. Maybe that's the only way we will ever look at each other as brothers and sisters instead of "us" and "them."

There were black soldiers fighting alongside whites as far back as the Civil War. That didn't do anything to lessen the divide between the races.

We were invaded, on Sept 11, 2001... and for a brief period we were all brothers and sisters... Of course that didn't last very long....

 

[Coaster]

We were invaded, on Sept 11, 2001... and for a brief period we were all brothers and sisters... Of course that didn't last very long....

Well put. And thanks to Jesse Jackhole, Al Sharptongue, and other race brokers, things will remain devided.

 

[Nupe2]

We were invaded, on Sept 11, 2001... and for a brief period we were all brothers and sisters... Of course that didn't last very long....

 

[Nupe2]

Well put. And thanks to Jesse Jackhole, Al Sharptongue, and other race brokers, things will remain devided.

Al Sharptongue!

 

[Pete]

In this country though, we took this to a level that legalized the proposition that SOME men were not equal and in fact were not men at all. This legalized system of subjugation was eventually replaced with legal segregation and has now been, in large measure, replaced with de facto segregation. This segregation and separatism has led to unequal educational opportunities, unequal access to capital, unequal access to justice and violent opposition to those black Americans who dared to raise their voices in opposition. Unfortunately, these conditions continue to exist and their existence can be directly attributed to the institution of slavery.

De facto segregation? Now I beg to differ. All the kids in this country sit right next to each other in the same schools, same rooms and listen to the same teacher. If deficient they get the benefit of extra help in reading or math whether they are white, black, red, purple or green. How can you get more equal?

Unequal access to capital? Access to capital is a free market system. Banks do not care, or even ask "race" all they care about is credit score and repayment history. You are a black man and I am going out on a limb and suppose you have a mortgage that you acquired easily. Biff Huntington, bank loan officer didn't care what race you were did he? With the advent of Freddy Mac or Fannie Mae, I cannot recall the government went the extra mile to create access to capital that minorities who typically couldn't qualify under traditional criteria. This to me seems to show a real effort to be equal.

Stereotypes are slow to erase but I personally feel that our society has taken great steps in the last 50 years. Discrimination laws have kicked down doors and gone along way to change the paradigms. Slavery was bad no doubt, but it was something beyond the control of the 3 or 4 generations since it was abolished. The mindsets and bigotry of people in the late 1800's and early 1900's were also bad and yet they have little to do with me or you today. People need to get out of the past and live in the present.

All that being said with the strides taken and the opportunities available, who is at fault for not taking advantage of them? White, black, red, purple or green who's fault is it if your "race/gender/nationality neutral" credit report score is 400 and you don't qualify for shiat? White, black, red, purple or green who's fault is it if you sat in class and didn't give a crap and now you cannot get a job that makes $70K a year?

EQUAL
Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation

OPPORTUNITY
Pronunciation: "ä-p&r-'tü-n&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : a favorable juncture of circumstances <the halt provided an opportunity for rest and refreshment>


Reads just like I understand it. :shrug: I think alot of people talk about "equal opportunity" yet what they really mean is a different phrase.


GUARANTEED
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -teed; -tee·ing
4 : to assert confidently <I guarantee you'll like it>

EQUAL
Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation

SUCCESS
Pronunciation: s&k-'ses
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin successus, from succedere
1 obsolete : OUTCOME, RESULT
2 a : degree or measure of succeeding b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence

 

[vraiblonde]

is not going to change the minds of those who do not believe that blacks have suffered in this country

Normal people do not dispute that blacks have suffered in this country. They certainly have, and on a level that their white counterparts have never experienced.

What I'm saying is that "black suffering" is now at their own hands and largely overblown in today's society. Are blacks still enslaved? Do they still only count for 3/5ths of a person? Are they still turned away at lunch counters or required to sit at the back of the bus?

That was then and this is now. There is no denying that blacks have come a long way in this country and are no longer held back by whites. They are held back by their own attitudes, just like every other ethnic group. They are held back by the "black leadership" who discount the accomplishments of a Condoleezza Rice or a Colin Powell, calling them Oreos or house ******s or whatever.

Nupe, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable because I think this discussion is important. And I'd rather talk to a normal person like you than one of those nuts who think a druggie who pulls a gun on a cop doesn't deserve to be shot.

 

[willie]

I knew this thread would raise some uncomfortable issues.

Nupe, I agree with all you have said and I have also found myself in SamSpades situation but it's off topic. This is all about ME. Even my ancestors were not involved in this. The current taxpayers that did have slaves in their family history should in no way be responsible. This bill and the thought behind it is no better than common thievery. I'm not sure I'd compare it to rape but that is probably how I'll feel if I pay for something Robert Byrd's ancestors did.

 

[LordStanley]

Its too bad Pres Johnson had to take back thier 40 acres and a mule. There would be no discussion on this matter....

 

[Nupe2]

Normal people do not dispute that blacks have suffered in this country. They certainly have, and on a level that their white counterparts have never experienced.

What I'm saying is that "black suffering" is now at their own hands and largely overblown in today's society. Are blacks still enslaved? Do they still only count for 3/5ths of a person? Are they still turned away at lunch counters or required to sit at the back of the bus?

That was then and this is now. There is no denying that blacks have come a long way in this country and are no longer held back by whites. They are held back by their own attitudes, just like every other ethnic group. They are held back by the "black leadership" who discount the accomplishments of a Condoleezza Rice or a Colin Powell, calling them Oreos or house ******s or whatever.

Nupe, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable because I think this discussion is important. And I'd rather talk to a normal person like you than one of those nuts who think a druggie who pulls a gun on a cop doesn't deserve to be shot.

Vrai - You and I are on the same page with most of this. We both know that racism is more often than not a subtle practice these days. I feel welcome to express my opinions here know that not everyone agrees (PETE!) but that we can engage in dialogue. That's a good step.

Personally, if you or anyone else here could cure my slice and help me line up my putts better (PETE!), I wouldn't care if you came dressed in a white hood holding hands with Daniel Carver! (okay, the holding hands with Daniel Carver (PETE!) is a little over the top for this Catholic School kid)

p.s.: Who you callin' normal!?!

 

[willie]

Latest issue of Golf Digest has David Ledbetter curing the slice. Doesn't work.

 

[Nupe2]

De facto segregation? Now I beg to differ. All the kids in this country sit right next to each other in the same schools, same rooms and listen to the same teacher. If deficient they get the benefit of extra help in reading or math whether they are white, black, red, purple or green. How can you get more equal?

The de facto segregation more often than not occurs when "white flight" occurs. However, I have to admit that "black flight" from the inner city by middle class blacks may have had an equal effect on those remaining behind, mostly black and poor in many neighborhoods. Black flight removed another layer of the tax base and reduced funding available for schools, etc. and also reduced the visibilty of those who had advanced through education and hard work. I also have to admit that you are right regarding access to extra help, etc. (I hate it when you're right)



Unequal access to capital? Access to capital is a free market system. Banks do not care, or even ask "race" all they care about is credit score and repayment history. You are a black man and I am going out on a limb and suppose you have a mortgage that you acquired easily. Biff Huntington, bank loan officer didn't care what race you were did he? With the advent of Freddy Mac or Fannie Mae, I cannot recall the government went the extra mile to create access to capital that minorities who typically couldn't qualify under traditional criteria. This to me seems to show a real effort to be equal.

Here's where we disagree. I do have a mortgage and have had several over the years. Speaking personally, I have experienced discrimination during the process and have even considered filing against one lender. What I was referring to are practices such as redlining in real estate, higher interest rates offered to blacks vs. whites (documented in many cases - but I don't have the information at hand) and general inability to make the social contacts that are sometimes helpful in obtaining business capital.

I understand that whites are also subject to some of the same hurdles and indeed things are better. To wholy discount that these discriminatory practices have occurred and continue to occure is wrong.

Again, that's a side issue. My overall issue is that we have to continue to fight injustice. Payment of reparations is not the answer for most of us.

Stereotypes are slow to erase but I personally feel that our society has taken great steps in the last 50 years. Discrimination laws have kicked down doors and gone along way to change the paradigms. Slavery was bad no doubt, but it was something beyond the control of the 3 or 4 generations since it was abolished. The mindsets and bigotry of people in the late 1800's and early 1900's were also bad and yet they have little to do with me or you today. People need to get out of the past and live in the present.



All that being said with the strides taken and the opportunities available, who is at fault for not taking advantage of them? White, black, red, purple or green who's fault is it if your "race/gender/nationality neutral" credit report score is 400 and you don't qualify for shiat? White, black, red, purple or green who's fault is it if you sat in class and didn't give a crap and now you cannot get a job that makes $70K a year?

No dispute here with that either.

EQUAL
Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation

OPPORTUNITY
Pronunciation: "ä-p&r-'tü-n&-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : a favorable juncture of circumstances <the halt provided an opportunity for rest and refreshment>


Reads just like I understand it. :shrug: I think alot of people talk about "equal opportunity" yet what they really mean is a different phrase.


GUARANTEED
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -teed; -tee·ing
4 : to assert confidently <I guarantee you'll like it>

EQUAL
Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation

SUCCESS
Pronunciation: s&k-'ses
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin successus, from succedere
1 obsolete : OUTCOME, RESULT
2 a : degree or measure of succeeding b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence

Comments imbedded

 

[Nupe2]

Latest issue of Golf Digest has David Ledbetter curing the slice. Doesn't work.

Mine shows up with my driver. I think I'll play the next round with just irons!
Putter - played the replica of Sawgrass #17 at Renditions yesterday....on in 1 (partner put 5 balls in the water) below the pin and......3 putted!

Can I get reparations for those putts?

 

[Pete]

Personally, if you or anyone else here could cure my slice and help me line up my putts better (PETE!), I wouldn't care if you came dressed in a white hood holding hands with Daniel Carver! (okay, the holding hands with Daniel Carver (PETE!) is a little over the top for this Catholic School kid)

p.s.: Who you callin' normal!?!

Balck and whites on the same golf course? Shirley you jest.

 

[Pete]

Here's where we disagree. I do have a mortgage and have had several over the years. Speaking personally, I have experienced discrimination during the process and have even considered filing against one lender. :

That is bad but I don't get it. Every loan I have applied for in the last few years "race" is not even asked. Fill out the form, click "submit" and off you go.

What I was referring to are practices such as redlining in real estate, higher interest rates offered to blacks vs. whites (documented in many cases - but I don't have the information at hand) and general inability to make the social contacts that are sometimes helpful in obtaining business capital. :

I would be interested in seeing the documentation for the higher interest rates. That is strictly forbidden. In risk based credit you pay higher rates for having riskier credit, but if someone was whacked based on race I cannot believe it. Banks are under microscopes for lending practises.

I understand that whites are also subject to some of the same hurdles and indeed things are better. To wholy discount that these discriminatory practices have occurred and continue to occure is wrong.

True

Again, that's a side issue. My overall issue is that we have to continue to fight injustice. Payment of reparations is not the answer for most of us.

No it is not, I agree