So, the Red Light Cameras are finally coming.

[glhs837]

http://www.stmarysmd.com/docs/FY 2014 Approved Budget Package.pdf


Page 56 details that the Sheriff is adding a full time position for a station clerk to read red light camera citations. Oddly, I find no mention anywhere in the revenues that might be revenues from the RLCs. Saw mention of a study done in a recent news article.... I'll be putting in a public information request here for that study and any other information that might be laying around about the upcoming deployment. Wonder if it will get stonewalled like so many jurisdictions do with information about these systems.


Remembering what a red light means -- SoMdNews.com

Motorists heading onto the base through Gate 1 and Gate 2 are getting halfway through the intersection on Route 235 and then are stuck on the wrong end of a red traffic light as Pax River security personnel check the identification of those ahead. There they sit, blocking traffic lanes for those who now have the green light.

These are accidents waiting to happen. And happen they do, according to a study of those intersections as part of the initiative to install the red light cameras. That study showed that there were a high number of accidents at those intersections, and that traffic was stacking up in the intersections after the light had changed.

I know the school bus cameras were supposed to be revenue neutral, with the proceeds going to the company til the system was paid off, no mention of what happened after that. But there has been no mention of how any RLC contract might work.

 

[TPD]

GLHS - I'm with you on this issue. It burns me to think we will have RLCs in this county. It will not solve a perceived problem. Unfortunately, we have one accident that people will refer to in these debates (Commissioner Morgan's wife) as support for RLC. Prove to me that her accident could have been prevented with a RLC and I may reconsider, but doubtful, after all of the evidence you, glhs, have presented on these forums.

On a side note, as a person who drives commercial trucks, the 1st thing I do when driving my passenger vehicle is look in my rearview mirror when a light turns yellow. If there is a commercial vehicle behind me, I will go through the yellow light, depending on the type of vehicle behind me and the road conditions at the time. I am teaching my daughter the same thing. When I am stopped at a red-light and get the green light, I always look to my right and left before proceeding through the intersection. It is driving habits like this that prevent accidents and nullify RLCs.

 

[RPMDAD]

gl, this part throws me here.

Page 56 details that the Sheriff is adding a full time position for a station clerk to read red light camera citations

I thought according to the following, it was suppose to be a police officer.

How It Works
Pole-mounted cameras record images of vehicles that unlawfully enter the intersection after the a traffic signal’s indication turns red. The owners of those vehicles are identified from the license tag and, after verification of the violations by a police officer, mailed civil citations. These citations, which presently carry a $75 fine, can be contested in court.

Brochure

 

[glhs837]

Hell, unless I'm mistaken, this program will be illegal right out of the box. Sherifff has requested and been approved to add a Station Clerk 03 for reviewing citations. But according to this....

http://www.stmarysmd.com/docs/FY2014ApprovedBudgetBook.pdf

Page 281 breaks down the Sheriffs employees into sworn officers and others. And, surprise, even though MD law requires sworn law enforcement officers review citations, station clerks are not sworn officers. Law currently says this

A signed statement by a duly authorized law enforcement officer employed by or under contract with an agency that, based on inspection of recorded images, the motor vehicle was being operated in violation of this 26 subtitle

and duly authorized, as far as I know, means a sworn officer, not a civilian clerk.

 

[itsrequired]

http://www.stmarysmd.com/docs/FY 2014 Approved Budget Package.pdf


Page 56 details that the Sheriff is adding a full time position for a station clerk to read red light camera citations. Oddly, I find no mention anywhere in the revenues that might be revenues from the RLCs. Saw mention of a study done in a recent news article.... I'll be putting in a public information request here for that study and any other information that might be laying around about the upcoming deployment. Wonder if it will get stonewalled like so many jurisdictions do with information about these systems.


Remembering what a red light means -- SoMdNews.com





I know the school bus cameras were supposed to be revenue neutral, with the proceeds going to the company til the system was paid off, no mention of what happened after that. But there has been no mention of how any RLC contract might work.

Do you think these cameras will help eliviate the traffic problem of people getting into the intersection at Great Mills Road and 235?

 

[glhs837]

GLHS - I'm with you on this issue. It burns me to think we will have RLCs in this county. It will not solve a perceived problem. Unfortunately, we have one accident that people will refer to in these debates (Commissioner Morgan's wife) as support for RLC. Prove to me that her accident could have been prevented with a RLC and I may reconsider, but doubtful, after all of the evidence you, glhs, have presented on these forums.

On a side note, as a person who drives commercial trucks, the 1st thing I do when driving my passenger vehicle is look in my rearview mirror when a light turns yellow. If there is a commercial vehicle behind me, I will go through the yellow light, depending on the type of vehicle behind me and the road conditions at the time. I am teaching my daughter the same thing. When I am stopped at a red-light and get the green light, I always look to my right and left before proceeding through the intersection. It is driving habits like this that prevent accidents and nullify RLCs.

From what I understand of her accident, and what I know of RLCs, the chances are pretty low of that. From the studies I read, the greatest reduction in runners is in the group of "fence sitters", those who make a choice to run the yellow or stop. the folks who blow through lights that have been red for longer than a second, which had to have been the case in her crash, those incidents see very little to no reduction.

And that's because the people who run reds that have been lit for a while, those are not folks making a conscious choice, but rather folks unaware of the status of the light at all. phone call, radio station Jr in the back, seat, for whatever reason, they are not even looking at the light.

And with our long yellows (four seconds on 235 north and south) and the long red/yellow overlap (one full second) the amount of crashes like hers, I think will vanish, statistically speaking. But that's why I want to see the study that was done. I have to think it it stood up to the light of day, scientifically, it would have made front page news. But oddly enough, we never knew it was happening, nor have we seen any data from it.

 

[itsrequired]

Hell, unless I'm mistaken, this program will be illegal right out of the box. Sherifff has requested and been approved to add a Station Clerk 03 for reviewing citations. But according to this....

http://www.stmarysmd.com/docs/FY2014ApprovedBudgetBook.pdf

Page 281 breaks down the Sheriffs employees into sworn officers and others. And, surprise, even though MD law requires sworn law enforcement officers review citations, station clerks are not sworn officers. Law currently says this





and duly authorized, as far as I know, means a sworn officer, not a civilian clerk.

The station clerk is an administrative aid to the traffic unit. That is not someone who reviews citations.

 

[TPD]

Do you think these cameras will help eliviate the traffic problem of people getting into the intersection at Great Mills Road and 235?

IMO, not completely. It is my understanding that RLCs do not capture left turning vehicles. Is this true? If so, then southbound 235 traffic will continue blocking the intersection while turning into gate 2. Active police enforcement WILL stop this.

 

[itsrequired]

IMO, not completely. It is my understanding that RLCs do not capture left turning vehicles. Is this true? If so, then southbound 235 traffic will continue blocking the intersection while turning into gate 2. Active police enforcement WILL stop this.

Red light cameras can and will capture left turning vehicles. In some instances, they may not capture right turning vehicles where it is legal to turn right on red.

 

[huntr1]

IMO, not completely. It is my understanding that RLCs do not capture left turning vehicles. Is this true? If so, then southbound 235 traffic will continue blocking the intersection while turning into gate 2. Active police enforcement WILL stop this.

Depends on the set up. In Waldorf, at the intersection of 301 & Business Rt. 5, there by the Best Buy, the cameras are set up to catch left turning vehicles. Same with the cameras at 5/301 & Cedarville Rd.

 

[glhs837]

Do you think these cameras will help eliviate the traffic problem of people getting into the intersection at Great Mills Road and 235?

I don't think so, as far as I know, if you enter the intersection when the light is yellow or green, no citation will/can be issued, since the law you broke is that of disobeying a traffic signal. Blocking the box is a law, but not one subject to automated enforcement.

IMO, not completely. It is my understanding that RLCs do not capture left turning vehicles. Is this true? If so, then southbound 235 traffic will continue blocking the intersection while turning into gate 2. Active police enforcement WILL stop this.

Normally, systems are deployed initially just doing straight through citations, since it's a safety thing we are supposedly doing. But, especially in areas like this, where the incidence of red light runners isn't enough to really support them, quite often they are then changed to read right on red violations, massively increasing the revenue intake. And the officials who just a year or two before were all puffed up on this being ABOUT SAVING LIVES, DAMNIT!!!!!! get all "Well right on red without stopping is breaking the law!!!"

 

[glhs837]

The station clerk is an administrative aid to the traffic unit. That is not someone who reviews citations.

So why are we buying a SC just for red light cameras? Thats how the budget calls it out.

The intersections of Route 235 at Pegg Road and Great Mills Road were specifically studied as part of an initiative to install red-light cameras along the highway, which is delayed until a new officer is approved in the sheriff’s budget to implement the program, Cameron said.

St. Mary’s deputies intervening at blocked intersections -- SoMdNews.com

 

[itsrequired]

I don't think so, as far as I know, if you enter the intersection when the light is yellow or green, no citation will/can be issued, since the law you broke is that of disobeying a traffic signal. Blocking the box is a law, but not one subject to automated enforcement.

I think you are wrong. These people who are getting caught in the intersection are people who have blown the light. Not to mention the amount of people who will think twice about being in the middle of the intersection due to the red light camera. You can say it won't because you don't like cameras, but you know better.

The cameras are coming. Have a nice day.

 

[itsrequired]

So why are we buying a SC just for red light cameras? Thats how the budget calls it out.

Because other than monitoring the cameras, there is a substantial amount of administrative work to go along with that process.

 

[glhs837]

I think you are wrong. These people who are getting caught in the intersection are people who have blown the light. Not to mention the amount of people who will think twice about being in the middle of the intersection due to the red light camera. You can say it won't because you don't like cameras, but you know better.

The cameras are coming. Have a nice day.

Not sure how much time you have spent there in the AMs, and I am sure some of them are runners, but I would lay even money that well over %90 of the box blockers are folks who entered on green or yellow, expecting traffic to make room for them. And of course, since these would most likely not be four way units, they wont get images of people going east/west. I don't really care if it stops box blockers, since the system is supposed to be about safety, right? Any accidents with box blockers? Like right on red, yep, it s law, but the folks screaming safety to get these in then adding stuff like box blocking or right on red have no damn leg to stand on.

 

[corollinout]

The cameras won't catch people sitting in the intersection. The triggering system for the red light cameras are before the stop bar. If the person is already past it, then the camera won't know the car is there. What they need to curve that behavior, if they wanted to pursue, is gridlock enforcement. It basically draws a box around the intersection, and if there is a car sitting in the intersection, it will take a violation. They are using it in DC now.

I'm not 100% sure how the violation is triggered with gridlock.

 

[Goldenhawk]

I suggest that right now we need some hard data on the yellow light timing at the proposed intersections. If the yellow timing is shortened to "increase revenues" there needs to be factual grounds for a challenge. The easiest way is cell phone videos of a few light cycles at various times of day; counting video frames will establish the length within a few hundredths of a second.

Don't laugh. Even when it truly starts out as a safety thing, the potential dollar signs of a RLC ticket start swimming in front of the eyes of a cash-starved comptroller. Happens almost every place they're installed.

 

[TimTheToolMan]

Too many times, in too many jurisdictions, have the citizens been told these were being implemented for safety. That's how they are sold, but too many times we have come to find out it is about nothing but revenue. Countless studies have been done to show how once these cameras were installed, yellow lights are shortened. Baltimore's FOX45 news showed this in the city of Baltimore a few years ago how the average yellow light at intersections with cameras was shorter than the 3 second guideline recomended by USDOT.

 

[MadDogMarine]

I think you are wrong. These people who are getting caught in the intersection are people who have blown the light. Not to mention the amount of people who will think twice about being in the middle of the intersection due to the red light camera. You can say it won't because you don't like cameras, but you know better.

The cameras are coming. Have a nice day.

Thank You!. More intersection accidents are coming! Thank You again!

"I just stop on the yellow, I stop, I don't care what, I just stop," Harper said."We're seeing an increase in rear end collisions because people are stopping shorter than they normally would," said Matt Anesh, Mayor of South Plainfield.

South Plainfield says red light cameras are causing more accidents | 7online.com

“Rather than improving motorist safety, red-light cameras significantly increase crashes and are a ticket to higher auto insurance premiums, researchers at the University of South Florida College of Public Health conclude. The effective remedy to red-light running uses engineering solutions to improve intersection safety, which is particularly important to Florida’s elderly drivers, the researchers recommend.

Instead, they increase crashes and injuries as drivers attempt to abruptly stop at camera intersections. If used in Florida, cameras could potentially create even worse outcomes due to the state’s high percent of elderly who are more likely to be injured or killed when a crash occurs.”

Study finds red light cameras cause accidents - Watchdog Wire - Florida

They were installed at dangerous intersections to reduce the number of crashes, but New Jersey's controversial red-light cameras have actually seen an increase in collisions, according to a new state report.

A New Jersey Department of Transportation analysis of two dozen intersections that have had the automated traffic cops for at least a year found that accidents — particularly rear-end crashes — have increased, and the collisions are more costly.

Accident rate rises at intersections with red-light cameras, N.J. study shows | NJ.com


BUT, that is OK since it is ALL ABOUT SAFETY!(NOT REVENUE!)

 

[glhs837]

I suggest that right now we need some hard data on the yellow light timing at the proposed intersections. If the yellow timing is shortened to "increase revenues" there needs to be factual grounds for a challenge. The easiest way is cell phone videos of a few light cycles at various times of day; counting video frames will establish the length within a few hundredths of a second.

Don't laugh. Even when it truly starts out as a safety thing, the potential dollar signs of a RLC ticket start swimming in front of the eyes of a cash-starved comptroller. Happens almost every place they're installed.

Right now, all signalized intersections between Gate 2 and Rt 4 are at a four second yellow going north and south, as per the SHA engineer who is in charge of such things. Cant speak to the others, as when I talked to him, those were the ones I specifically asked about. Four second yellows with a one second overlap between the north/south going red and the east/west going green. I have verified all of them myself over time. From his response wheen I told him why I was asking, I would be very surprised were the SHA to sign off on changing yellow timing. I would expect them to go to a right on red variation first.