Spicer WasNot The Only One .......

[SamSpade]

When was the last time you challenged yourself on something you were sure you knew and turned out you found you learned a lot or were even wrong? Did that process of learning begin with keeping your head in the sand or....challenging yourself?

Two things --

1. Pretty sure I have never observed you change your mind mid-thread, as a result of argumentation. This goes against how most normal people react. People do not stop in the middle of an argument with a grand epiphany and declare "Eureka! I have seen the light, and hereby change my mind on this." If you've ever done this, congratulations on arriving to this planet, because you're not actually human.

2. People form opinions based largely on experience - and experience and time are the most persuasive factors leading them elsewhere. Say, for example, you're not sympathetic to gays - and then you make a few gay friends - and you change your mind. Say you think addicts are pathetic - and then YOU become addicted to pain-killers after a terrible accident. Boom - *life* changed your mind. Argument did not.

We all argue as though we think the force of our words will change minds - but it doesn't work that way.

 

[Larry Gude]

Two things --

1. Pretty sure I have never observed you change your mind mid-thread, as a result of argumentation. This goes against how most normal people react. People do not stop in the middle of an argument with a grand epiphany and declare "Eureka! I have seen the light, and hereby change my mind on this." If you've ever done this, congratulations on arriving to this planet, because you're not actually human.

2. People form opinions based largely on experience - and experience and time are the most persuasive factors leading them elsewhere. Say, for example, you're not sympathetic to gays - and then you make a few gay friends - and you change your mind. Say you think addicts are pathetic - and then YOU become addicted to pain-killers after a terrible accident. Boom - *life* changed your mind. Argument did not.

We all argue as though we think the force of our words will change minds - but it doesn't work that way.

Happened just yesterday when I declared Russia shared a border with Syria. It happens ALL the time in conversation, even when people don't admit it. YOU make me rethink my point, constantly, such as your point about 'we're always subject to propaganda'. If I were unsympathetic to gays, that doesn't prevent me from at least listening to someone who is when they say something I can't refute such as a positive experience they may have had. Jinx, and others, are totalitarian, in their thinking; THEY don't like gays who are mentally ill thus if YOU claim to have a gay friend and positive experiences either you're not telling the truth OR YOU are also mentally ill.

And we're not talking about gays per se. The Holocaust is an ENORMOUS issue and asking questions about it, some of the details, gets you attacked when it should start conversation. It's like climate change; don't agree on EVERY detail, you're a denier.

And jinx goes on to prove my theory of how we're all a LOT more alike than we're comfortable coming to grips with. He would point out the dogmatic manner of the people who are SURE Climate Change is man made and comes mostly from SUV's and that CO2 is the primary cause and IS warming the planet in a range that WILL kill us all in this amount of time; the science is SETTLED. He's skeptical there and a thinking person on it, interested in the details as opposed to swallowing the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. Yet on the holocaust, he's dogmatic.

 

[Wishbone]

The Holocaust is a slightly different case, as it was better documented... by the Nazi's themselves.

 

[GURPS]

Yet on the holocaust, he's dogmatic.

so what hair, exactly are you trying to split ?

 

[Larry Gude]

The Holocaust is a slightly different case, as it was better documented... by the Nazi's themselves.

Which is the very source for some of the skepticism. Are you aware there is evidence, or lack thereof, documenting that Hitler ever even knew what was going on let alone signed off on it or ordered it? And part of the reason for that is that there is evidence arguing that there was no mass gas chambers. And THAT is NOT to say Jews were not being executed. It's just that, in context of the concentration camp complex and how prisoners were generally dealt with in the East, there wasn't much difference between the atrocities committed against Russian and Polish and political prisoners. Most of the evidence of the gas chamber argument came from the Russians who had PLENTY of their own atrocities they'd rather not have had to face up to. And there is evidence some, much of the evidence was, in fact, fabricated. But, we take them at face value. Why would we take one mass murderers word over another? One was on our side, the one that murdered FAR more of it's own people than Hitler ever did. You are ware that few German Jews were executed, yes? Spicers and Mathews point to begin with?

 

[Gilligan]

Ahmadinnerjacket always claimed the entire holocaust was a hoax and a myth. Sayyyy...I see he's going to run for Iran's prez again. Interesting times.

 

[Larry Gude]

so what hair, exactly are you trying to split ?

That's not a hair. That's the whole thing. Being dogmatic is the antithesis of skepticism. Humans are susceptible and inclined towards both. It is innate in us and we're not consistent.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ahmadinnerjacket always claimed the entire holocaust was a hoax and a myth. Sayyyy...I see he's going to run for Iran's prez again. Interesting times.

Mass murder of Jews is no hoax. Nor is mass murder of Ukrainians. Or American Indians. Or Armenians. Or and number of the tribes commanded to be exterminated in the Old Testament. The point is that some of the story of the Holocaust isn't as we're told and a lot of other holocausts and war crimes are not taught at all. Dresden. Churchill's plan to anthrax an entire region between Germany and France that would be a waste land to this day were his orders followed.

 

[Gilligan]

Mass murder of Jews is no hoax. Nor is mass murder of Ukrainians. Or American Indians. Or Armenians. Or and number of the tribes commanded to be exterminated in the Old Testament. The point is that some of the story of the Holocaust isn't as we're told and a lot of other holocausts and war crimes are not taught at all. Dresden. Churchill's plan to anthrax an entire region between Germany and France that would be a waste land to this day were his orders followed.

I'm pretty sure I knew all of that.

;-)

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm pretty sure I knew all of that.

;-)

I know you know. Others may not. And may not want to.

It's important to keep all this in context of what Spicer said in context of what was going on and the left is actually attacking Trump FOR ATTACKING Assad FOR using chemical weapons. WHIL jumping up and down about the Hitler comment.

 

[SamSpade]

Happened just yesterday when I declared Russia shared a border with Syria. It happens ALL the time in conversation, even when people don't admit it. YOU make me rethink my point, constantly, such as your point about 'we're always subject to propaganda'. If I were unsympathetic to gays, that doesn't prevent me from at least listening to someone who is when they say something I can't refute such as a positive experience they may have had. Jinx, and others, are totalitarian, in their thinking; THEY don't like gays who are mentally ill thus if YOU claim to have a gay friend and positive experiences either you're not telling the truth OR YOU are also mentally ill.

And we're not talking about gays per se. The Holocaust is an ENORMOUS issue and asking questions about it, some of the details, gets you attacked when it should start conversation. It's like climate change; don't agree on EVERY detail, you're a denier.

And jinx goes on to prove my theory of how we're all a LOT more alike than we're comfortable coming to grips with. He would point out the dogmatic manner of the people who are SURE Climate Change is man made and comes mostly from SUV's and that CO2 is the primary cause and IS warming the planet in a range that WILL kill us all in this amount of time; the science is SETTLED. He's skeptical there and a thinking person on it, interested in the details as opposed to swallowing the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. Yet on the holocaust, he's dogmatic.

Well, I don't think of being incorrect on facts as being the same as changing your mind. You might believe that the states need to be more empowered, but if you think there's 57 of them, that's not an opinion, that's just wrong.

I do believe that the Holocaust is a tremendously documented event and even today, there are STILL people who were either survivors or witnesses. I've known only a few bona fide deniers, and their argument is rooted in belief, where they have cherry-picked very poor data to come up with an absurd version of the truth. As an aside - my father has passed away but he was an eyewitness to the plane hitting the Pentagon, and I cite that as proof to the ridiculous missile conspiracy. Unless someone pulled off a switcheroo so amazing that David Copperfield would be impressed - it happened. I have since read several accounts corroborating the idea that gassing was not efficient but it made mass killing more palatable to the men assigned to do it, because when they did otherwise, they had soldiers flinch at the idea. Some accounts existed in news events where Germans gave testimony.

(You know what surprises me? There's a movie coming out soon about the *Armenian Genocide*. You should read the different opinions. I'll bet you can guess what they say on al-Jazeera about the mass killing of an ethnic Christian group at the hands of Muslims).

Specifically on climate change - I remain skeptical that the change will be catastrophic - or even significant. Yes, I've seen all kinds of data and argumentation on the subject - and reasonable guesses as to why some things have not occurred. Until I see repeatable verifiable proof and claims that actually come true, I will remain skeptical. I'm seeing even more data lately that is saying we track much more closely with the cycles of the sun than anything else.

ANYWAY -

I do maintain that people change their minds after dealing with something away from their opinion - given time to ruminate - and then allow experience and life to persuade them. I was once very unsympathetic to gay men. Why? Because I was molested by one when I was drunk. I still remember. It formed my first opinions. Life later changed my mind. These kinds of issues - the ones that are affected and shaped by how we FEEL - life does that. "Facts" don't. We once had a girl stay with us who was *TERRIFIED* of dogs. Even my own daughter was of all animals. The reason? They grew up around animals that attack you. Experience shapes you.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well, I don't think of being incorrect on facts as being the same as changing your mind. You might believe that the states need to be more empowered, but if you think there's 57 of them, that's not an opinion, that's just wrong. .

Agreed which is why I used the example of you and your propaganda argument. When you wrote it, it made me think, yeah, an awful lot of stuff IS trying to manipulate you.

 

[SamSpade]

Agreed which is why I used the example of you and your propaganda argument. When you wrote it, it made me think, yeah, an awful lot of stuff IS trying to manipulate you.

You know, I notice it a lot more now that there is a Republican president because his actions remain the center of the news cycle.
You'll see something simple being reported as "controversial" or 'possibly' unconstitutional. The phrasing is intended to sway public opinion while not necessarily being false.
I'm still kind of laughing at the meat loaf story.

The best example I can recall was during the floods after Katrina, where a white family was "foraging" for food, but a black family was "looting" (different news sources, VERY similar pictures).
They're doing the same thing, but one is being described as desperate, and the other as criminal - even though they are trying to get *FOOD*.

 

[Larry Gude]

I do believe that the Holocaust is a tremendously documented event and even today, there are STILL people who were either survivors or witnesses. I've known only a few bona fide deniers, .

I don't know any. Point here is an argument over what Spicer said, and Mathews and others. The evidence of mass, system murder of Jew's BY gas has a LOT of holes in it. Not the mass murder itself. There is evidence that 6 million is overblown by a couple million but that is not denial, it's a detail and details ought to matter. There is evidence that anywhere between 20 and 60 million Russians were killed BY Stalin BEFORE the war and that is, like Armenia, slowly coming out. Heck, 96,000 Germans of the 6th Army laid down their arms at Stalingrad. Only 3-4,000 ever went home. Why bother gassing anyone when you can work or starve them to death or simply let them die by exposure? The Germans used Zyklon B specifically to try and wring as much slave labor as possible out of their captives. It would have been a rube Goldberg way of killing en masse. But, hey, the Russians say it's so, so, must be. :shrug:

 

[SamSpade]

I don't know any. Point here is an argument over what Spicer said, and Mathews and others. The evidence of mass, system murder of Jew's BY gas has a LOT of holes in it. Not the mass murder itself. There is evidence that 6 million is overblown by a couple million but that is not denial, it's a detail and details ought to matter.

We have testimony - BRAGGING actually - by people like Eichmann who said he'd leap into his grave laughing that he was responsible for killing 5 million Jews.
We have diaries of people like Goebbels and Eichmann and Himmler.

I don't know of Stalin's mass murder being something that is "slowly coming out". I first read about it in a book by Hedrick Smith called "The Russians" back in '75. And he only mentioned it as a way of observing that Soviet young adults didn't know something the West knew a LOT about. The Armenian genocide is something I've known at least since my teens, and learned more as I met Turks - and Kurds.

My observations with conspiracy theories is - they depend heavily on questioning existing data on the basis of what ISN'T there - as in "Why didn't they do this?".
It can be a valid question, but it's not an answer. Well, they didn't GAS everyone - ok, how DID the mounds of dead bodies get there? There's evidence - and lack of evidence.
Evidence points to one thing - lack of it - well, it's not an answer.

 

[Wishbone]

I think Larry might be right... Or it might have been Space Aliens.

A toss up.

 

[Larry Gude]

I think Larry might be right... Or it might have been Space Aliens.

A toss up.

Right about what? My only claim is that Spicer, and Mathews, have a point in regards to Hitler and WMD. The man was evil but we, because it's what people do, try and heap every last drop of evil on to as few scapegoats as possible to avoid our own sins.

 

[Larry Gude]

We have testimony - BRAGGING actually - by people like Eichmann who said he'd leap into his grave laughing that he was responsible for killing 5 million Jews.
We have diaries of people like Goebbels and Eichmann and Himmler. .

Several of which have been shown to be flat out forgeries, written on paper and written with ink made AFTER the war...and their deaths. And you seemed to have left out one name that ought to be pretty easy to show.
Feel free to surf around a little. Give it a little time. You'll either have everything you're sure of confirmed and reinforced or maybe have a few questions, none of which change the fact that Jews WERE mass murdered. Only some of the details. And why; to cover up allied atrocities.

 

[GURPS]

That's not a hair. That's the whole thing. Being dogmatic is the antithesis of skepticism. Humans are susceptible and inclined towards both. It is innate in us and we're not consistent.

so the Russians lied about People Gassed in the Showers ?

 

[GURPS]

I have since read several accounts corroborating the idea that gassing was not efficient but it made mass killing more palatable to the men assigned to do it, because when they did otherwise, they had soldiers flinch at the idea. Some accounts existed in news events where Germans gave testimony.

Indeed ....

This guy Vasily Blokhin had no problem personally murdering 7,000 Polish Officers [and others]


Blokhin initially decided on an ambitious quota of 300 executions per night; and engineered an efficient system in which the prisoners were individually led to a small antechamber—which had been painted red and was known as the "Leninist room"—for a brief and cursory positive identification, before being handcuffed and led into the execution room next door. The room was specially designed with padded walls for soundproofing, a sloping concrete floor with a drain and hose, and a log wall for the prisoners to stand against. Blokhin would stand waiting behind the door in his executioner garb: a leather butcher's apron, leather hat, and shoulder-length leather gloves. Then, without a hearing, the reading of a sentence or any other formalities, each prisoner was brought in and restrained by guards while Blokhin shot him once in the base of the skull with a German Walther Model 2 .25 ACP pistol. He had brought a briefcase full of his own Walther pistols, since he did not trust the reliability of the standard-issue Soviet TT-30 for the frequent, heavy use he intended. The use of a German pocket pistol, which was commonly carried by German police and intelligence agents, also provided plausible deniability of the executions if the bodies were discovered later.[16]

An estimated 30 local NKVD agents, guards and drivers were pressed into service to escort prisoners to the basement, confirm identification, then remove the bodies and hose down the blood after each execution. Although some of the executions were carried out by Senior Lieutenant of State Security Andrei Rubanov, Blokhin was the primary executioner and, true to his reputation, liked to work continuously and rapidly without interruption.[14] In keeping with NKVD policy and the overall "wet" nature of the operation, the executions were conducted at night, starting at dark and continuing until just prior to dawn. The bodies were continuously loaded onto covered flat-bed trucks through a back door in the execution chamber and trucked, twice a night, to Mednoye, where Blokhin had arranged for a bulldozer and two NKVD drivers to dispose of bodies at an unfenced site. Each night, 24–25 trenches, measuring eight to 10 meters (24.3 to 32.8 feet) total, were dug to hold that night's corpses, and each trench was covered up before dawn.[17]

Blokhin and his team worked without pause for 10 hours each night, with Blokhin executing an average of one prisoner every three minutes.[3] At the end of the night, Blokhin provided vodka to all his men.[18] On 27 April 1940, Blokhin secretly received the Order of the Red Banner and a modest monthly pay premium as a reward from Joseph Stalin for his "skill and organization in the effective carrying out of special tasks".[19][20] His count of 7,000 shot in 28 days remains the most organized and protracted mass murder by a single individual on record,[3] and saw him being named the Guinness World Record holder for 'Most Prolific Executioner' in 2010.[4]