Vince
......
Yeah, but if I do that in the house, I'll ruin my new refrigerator.
T
toppick08
Guest
...True.
Pushrod
Patriot
Yeah, but if I do that in the house, I'll ruin my new refrigerator.
I think if you did that to your refrigerator, your wife would ruin you.
Vince
......
Got rid of the wife about 10 years ago.
That's why I can afford a new refrigerator.
Pushrod
Patriot
Got rid of the wife about 10 years ago.
I hope your referring to an actual mechanical cooling device and not your new girlfriend, because if your referring to a chick by calling her that, again I will say she will ruin you.
Vince
......
The point is, spraying 10 ga buckshot in the house would be my second choice.
desertrat
0_0
Wasn't aware of that. Because they are moving slow to start with I guess?
itsbob
I bowl overhand
It's a slow heavy round. LOTS of stopping power, but not much in the penetration department (what you want when you have a crazed native running at you drugged out, and feeling no pain).
The only penetration test I've personally done.. it will not penetrate a car door. Even a Ball round didn't penetrate both panels of the car door.
AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
There is no such thing as stopping power.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
Anyone wanting to truly understand wound ballistics needs to read what Dr. Martin Fackler says on the subject as he is the foremost researcher on the topic.
The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1 And drywall is easily penetrated by almost every kind of round there is.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
Anyone wanting to truly understand wound ballistics needs to read what Dr. Martin Fackler says on the subject as he is the foremost researcher on the topic.
The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1 And drywall is easily penetrated by almost every kind of round there is.
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Larry Gude
Strung Out
Vince
......
Great article Larry.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
Can't see the video, all I can say is I've conducted the car door experiment myself, and ended up with a door rull of 45 rounds.
They all went in, none came out.
Granted I don't know what kind of car the door came out of, and it was sheet metal both front and back. The rounds penetrated the first sheet, deformed and slowed enough that they barely made a dent in the inside of the door.
This same theory is used in Bradley Armor.. two thin sheets of aluminum/metal then you get to the main armor.. the first two thin sheets, and spacing, deform the incoming round and prevent it from penetrating the actual armor.
And I would disagree with the "No Knock Down Power" theory..
TO take it to the extreme.. I can take a 120mm tank round and fire it at an opposing tank.. first round is a APFSDS.. A small round traveling VERY fast. It will go through one side of the tank and out the other and you won't even know it hit you, until the fire and expolsions rip your body apart.
I take the same calibre round (120mm) and fire a HEAT, or HEP round at you and you can watch the round arch through the sky as it reaches out to touch you.. if that round even fails to detonate (the APFSDS round does not have a warhead) you'll know you've been hit as the knock down power in that round will rock that tank's suspension.
So at the extreme, the very fast, small diameter round will penetrate and continue through the target without you knowing you've even been hit, where as the BIG slow round will rock your world and knock you on your ass.
AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
At handgun round speeds and weights there is no such thing as knock down or stopping power. You can disagree all you want but the experts on the topic agree. It does not exist. Handgun wounds can be lethal based on a few things, hitting the CNS, or hitting an area that will cause massive blood loss which is accomplished by penetration and permanent cavity size. Obviously the latter one can be accomplished by using a bigger round and, or using a good defensive round that expands good and can still accomplish the 12" penetration line.
So target placement will always be top followed by the combo of final round size(expanded projectile) once it penetrates and the depth of penetration.(permanent cavity)
itsbob
I bowl overhand
One piece is missing. Maybe you can point me to it. What was the energy transferred to the target from the round. When you hit a target in the chest the transfer of energy to the target would translate to "knockdown" power, penetration and expansion better define lethality. Kinetic energy better defines "knock down power" and I believe that's just a simple physics problem.
Pete
Repete
Hmmmm since tissue is soft the transfer of energy would be negligible. If you had a 1 inch slab of metal strapped to your chest you would get knocked down because the energy is transfered into the slab. If you get shot in the bare chest the bullet retains the energy as it passes through the soft tissue.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
If it passed all the way through like a large calibre rifle round I think you'd be right, but if a handgun round doesn't go all the way through ALL the energy has to be transferred
AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
The energy is the same amount that the person firing the round feels in recoil when they shoot it, again very negligible in a handgun round.
AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
itsbob
I bowl overhand
:BS:
There is a video of a drug bust, officers knocked down the door, the lead took two handgun rounds to the chest, he was wearing armor.
When the shots impacted he was taken out of the fight, he was "knocked down".
He didn't get his faculties back until after the fight was over. Everyone at the scene thought he had died on impact.
There are SEVERAL videos from Afghanistan and Iraq of people taking hits in the chest armor and getting knocked off of their feet. Yet the recoil from the gun (normally equivalent to a .308) are nominal.
"While Tschiderer was relaying information to the truck commander of his
M114 Humvee, an enemy sniper team prepared to engage him from inside of a
cushioned silver van being used as a mobile sniper’s nest. This nest was lined
with numerous bed mattresses to muffle the sound of a Dragonoff sniper rifle
fired through a hole just big enough for the shooter to engage his target of
choice. "
Tschiderer was knocked to the ground from the sudden impact of the
sniper’s bullet. The bullet only seemed to have fazed this Soldier as, adrenaline
pumping, he sprang right back up in order to take cover and locate the enemy’s
position."
A 7.62 rifle, and anyone that's fired a 7.62 knows the recoil to your shoulder is pretty minimal, yet it took this soldier (a might Cavalry Trooper, not just an ordinary infantryman)right off of his feet. (there's a video of this attack on the web somewhere, but I can't get to it!)
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AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
Did you ever take into effect psychological effects of getting shot? Yes some people fall down when getting shot, that does not necessarily mean that the force of the rounds impact is what caused it.
Bob it's obvious you have your feeling on it, I am just presenting you with what the experts on the field of wound ballistics say about it. These aren't just internet gun nuts throwing out their feelings, they are researchers with experience.
Newton's law of motion tells me that if the recoil of the firearm won't normally knock the shooter down, then the force of the impact of the round alone, will not normally knock the person getting shot down.