Strange Ingratitude?

[JollyRoger]

To the parents of Pat Tillman...Yes remember this guy? He walked away from a multimillion dollar NFL career to fight for his country. Sad to say he was killed by so called friendly fire. Now his parents are trampling his grave. Maybe...I think they didn't like the payout that they got from an army guy. If he died as a pro football player they would be millioniares.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/03/04/ap2570680.html

 

[Larry Gude]

Would you mind elaborating...

...because I don't get your point.

 

[FromTexas]

...because I don't get your point.

I think he assumes that parents can't possibly just want to know the truth. It could never be anything that simple...

 

[Ken King]

...because I don't get your point.

I don't get his point either.

 

[willie]

I'm not sure where he is going about the parents financial gain but I do wonder about a "criminal" investigation.

 

[huntr1]

Guy that I know was army, and was in combat in afghanistan. He was saying that with a unit the size of Tillman's, about the only way he coulda been shot by "friendly fire" is on purpose. Kinda see his point. 5-9 guys that are HIGHLY trained (they are RANGERS after all), all in protected positions, all firing in the same direction, knowing exactly where each other is, this most likely was NOT an accident. They also apparently burned his uniform and personal effects in the field.

 

[BS Gal]

Guy that I know was army, and was in combat in afghanistan. He was saying that with a unit the size of Tillman's, about the only way he coulda been shot by "friendly fire" is on purpose. Kinda see his point. 5-9 guys that are HIGHLY trained (they are RANGERS after all), all in protected positions, all firing in the same direction, knowing exactly where each other is, this most likely was NOT an accident. They also apparently burned his uniform and personal effects in the field.

So, what are you saying? They didn't like him and killed him on purpose?

 

[huntr1]

So, what are you saying? They didn't like him and killed him on purpose?

Wouldn't have to be "they". "He" is all it would have taken.



Yes.

 

[BS Gal]

Wouldn't have to be "they". "He" is all it would have taken.



Yes.

Well, that's kind of sad.........I haven't followed this in the news. I just can't see one of their own taking another's life, no matter what.

 

[Bruzilla]

This seems like another of those Jessica Lynch/DC Sniper stories where lots of "sources" are reported as saying the government said something when they never did. With today's media there's no telling where all these reports and stories come from, just like the "burning his effects and uniform in the field" story... that's the first I've heard of that. Wonder where the report came from... probably "an informed source familiar with the incident" meaning the guy who cleans the mens rooms at the Pentagon.

No wonder the family is upset... I'm sure they're listening to all these idiots.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

Well, that's kind of sad.........I haven't followed this in the news. I just can't see one of their own taking another's life, no matter what.

Let's see...far from home, battle stress which includes worrying about booby traps, the odd mortor round coming from nowhere, local 'friendlys' whose loyalties might be a bit suspect, youth, new to combat, typical male rivalry and ego and all the stupid #### we normally fight each other over, throw in a few bad days, night time and, oh yeah, assault weapons!

It happens. It has happened. It'll continue to happen.

 

[willie]

Wouldn't have to be "they". "He" is all it would have taken.



Yes.

Anything is possible but I don't believe that theory at all. More likely than that it is a Democratic/media inspired "criminal" investigation to undermine support for the war. It sounds like some stupid exercise Jimmy Carter would dream up.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Let's see...far from home, battle stress which includes worrying about booby traps, the odd mortor round coming from nowhere, local 'friendlys' whose loyalties might be a bit suspect, youth, new to combat, typical male rivalry and ego and all the stupid #### we normally fight each other over, throw in a few bad days, night time and, oh yeah, assault weapons!

It happens. It has happened. It'll continue to happen.

Not to mention the Special Forces guy that happens to be a Muslim; mixed loyalties.

 

[MMDad]

This is what concerns me the most:

"Officers destroyed critical evidence and concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger, who was nearby, the report found."

I heard on the news that the real difference between this investigation and those that proceeded it is that witnesses can now be deposed under oath. Somehow they think they will get better evidence now than they did almost two years ago when the incident was fresh in memory.

 

[itsbob]

Guy that I know was army, and was in combat in afghanistan. He was saying that with a unit the size of Tillman's, about the only way he coulda been shot by "friendly fire" is on purpose. Kinda see his point. 5-9 guys that are HIGHLY trained (they are RANGERS after all), all in protected positions, all firing in the same direction, knowing exactly where each other is, this most likely was NOT an accident. They also apparently burned his uniform and personal effects in the field.

Bullchit.. even in training we "killed" our own fairly often. Granted Rangers are highly trained infantrymen, but it's VERY easy to get into a crossfire, or on the wrong side of the kill box. Enemy movement can seperate a patrol so you end up shooting towards each other while shooting at the enemy.

It's even possible, especially at night, to get into a firefight with your own patrol. It happens.

IF you are using tracer rounds, that is a good giveaway to who you are shooting.. we use red (US and NATO), Soviets use green (most insurgents/ Afghani's armed with AK's) but most units don't use tracers as it is too easy to follow the trail back to it's source at night, and usually only the M60 and the M249 are shooting 1:5 tracer rounds. RARELY used in M16's.

Confusion in battle and fratricide are common, just not talked about much.

 

[Larry Gude]

Thank you Bob...

Bullchit.. even in training we "killed" our own fairly often. Granted Rangers are highly trained infantrymen, but it's VERY easy to get into a crossfire, or on the wrong side of the kill box. Enemy movement can seperate a patrol so you end up shooting towards each other while shooting at the enemy.

It's even possible, especially at night, to get into a firefight with your own patrol. It happens.

IF you are using tracer rounds, that is a good giveaway to who you are shooting.. we use red (US and NATO), Soviets use green (most insurgents/ Afghani's armed with AK's) but most units don't use tracers as it is too easy to follow the trail back to it's source at night, and usually only the M60 and the M249 are shooting 1:5 tracer rounds. RARELY used in M16's.

Confusion in battle and fratricide are common, just not talked about much.

...I was hoping a serviceman would handle this so that I didn't have to and then get into one of those 'how do you know, did you serve?' arguments.

I didn't serve. I do read.

Thanks

 

[Ken King]

...I was hoping a serviceman would handle this so that I didn't have to and then get into one of those 'how do you know, did you serve?' arguments.

I didn't serve. I do read.

Thanks

What is the problem with a criminal investigation? Did them during/after GW1 (first Gulf War). Did them when those Black Hawks got shot down on scheduled flight in the no fly zone. Did them in Nam. If something stinks bad enough to call for an investigation then damn right do it. If it was an accident, so be it. But if someone screwed up then they should be held to account for what happened.

 

[itsbob]

What is the problem with a criminal investigation? Did them during/after GW1 (first Gulf War). Did them when those Black Hawks got shot down on scheduled flight in the no fly zone. Did them in Nam. If something stinks bad enough to call for an investigation then damn right do it. If it was an accident, so be it. But if someone screwed up then they should be held to account for what happened.

Not just screwed up, but there HAS to be intent.. they/he would have had to intended to kill Tillman. This is war, people die, good people too, but you can't cripple commanders on every level, have them second guess or NOT make a decision because, "If one of my guys die because I made a bad decision, I could go to jail!"

IF they can prove intent to harm or kill him then by all means, take someone to court and send them to prison, if they made a mistake.. again, it's war, and it's hell, but mistakes happen.

 

[JollyRoger]

Not just screwed up, but there HAS to be intent.. they/he would have had to intended to kill Tillman. This is war, people die, good people too, but you can't cripple commanders on every level, have them second guess or NOT make a decision because, "If one of my guys die because I made a bad decision, I could go to jail!"

IF they can prove intent to harm or kill him then by all means, take someone to court and send them to prison, if they made a mistake.. again, it's war, and it's hell, but mistakes happen.

Thanks for helping my point here. I heard that his family wants to sue. I have never been in a ground comcat situation thank god. I have seen men die do to others mistakes on an aircraft carrier. It's part of the job. One day on my ship we had a "Rig The Bericade Drill". Anyone who has been through one knows about those deck plates they put down so the airplane doesn't slip under the wire..After the drill was over..they stowed them..but forgot to tie them down...these things are about the size of a desk top and maybe 100lbs. An A-7 turned on that pile of steel plate and blew one into a E-2c's prop...the prop disapeared. My best freind lost his arm from the elbow down when he was hit by it. There were lots of others that day in medical with pieces of that prop stuck in them. Anyway there where no law suits pending that I know of!

 

[Ken King]

Not just screwed up, but there HAS to be intent.. they/he would have had to intended to kill Tillman. This is war, people die, good people too, but you can't cripple commanders on every level, have them second guess or NOT make a decision because, "If one of my guys die because I made a bad decision, I could go to jail!"

IF they can prove intent to harm or kill him then by all means, take someone to court and send them to prison, if they made a mistake.. again, it's war, and it's hell, but mistakes happen.

There was no intent to shoot down the black hawks, just bad procedure. No intent to kill the Aussies with those bombs, just bad target identification. There is a thing known as criminal negligence and with negligence there is no intent.