Sure, let's increase the Maryland work zone speed camera fine.

[SamSpade]

and tell it to the judge. See how that works out.

"Your Honor, I have evidence that states..."
"30 days or 300 bucks..."
"That states none of these charges are..."
"I won't say it again - those are your choices"
"Yes your honor".
Gavel
"Next case".

Yup. That was the gist of it. Been there.

 

[vraiblonde]

Seems a 12 year study should account for "We all know where they are". You all know, but that doesnt account for visitors and people who simply dont pay attention.

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that cameras are unfair because tourists and oblivions won't know where they are?

How about if you just stop for EVERY red light? Or obey the speed limit on EVERY road?



Shew!

 

[OccamsRazor]

Yep, they should, but they wont. Because high fines are a deterrent. And deterrence means less money. The company operating the cameras needs a certain minimum to stay in business.

Red Light Cameras May Not Make Streets Safer

Fear of fines may fuel more sudden stops and rear-end accidents

www.scientificamerican.com

Seems a 12 year study should account for "We all know where they are". You all know, but that doesnt account for visitors and people who simply dont pay attention.

So according to you, there is NO way to fix the problem. Just endless excuses and "it's a money grab."
Well, with my solution, at least there will be more money in the coffers to be accounted for. And, people will think twice before writing that $1000 check the next time they decide to punch it through the yellow light

 

[glhs837]

I get it; I too think if there's a way for government to be corrupt, it will. Here's the problem:

There's nothing you can do about it.

The odds always favor the house. Just do. The only thing you can do to thwart that is to....not play. There are enough people who will speed and drive reckless and attract police attention - let them, and you stay out of it.

OR! You can "fight the man" and tell it to the judge. See how that works out.

Nope, nothing you can do about, but that doesnt mean you cant bitch about it and make sure others are aware.

And you cant even tell it to the judge. The way these normally run, your allowed avenues to challenge the system are restricted. No officer to call into court. Not allowed to challenge the accuracy of the system since "experts".

 

[Kyle]

"Your Honor, I have evidence that states..."
"30 days or 300 bucks..."
"That states none of these charges are..."
"I won't say it again - those are your choices"
"Yes your honor".
Gavel
"Next case".

Yup. That was the gist of it. Been there.

Justice is not only blind, but deaf and stubborn too.

 

[vraiblonde]

Nope, nothing you can do about, but that doesnt mean you cant bitch about it and make sure others are aware.

You can bitch about it all you want - that's what we're here for As long as you're not trying to effect change, it's all good. I still say the best way to fight back against these government schemes is to not contribute to the profit. If everyone did that, they'd have to come up with a different shakedown.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Nope, nothing you can do about, but that doesnt mean you cant bitch about it and make sure others are aware.

And you cant even tell it to the judge. The way these normally run, your allowed avenues to challenge the system are restricted. No officer to call into court. Not allowed to challenge the accuracy of the system since "experts".

I can personalize this as incorrect as I have had to deal with this.
Was slowing down for a yellow light and the front of my vehicle was just over the wide white stripe and got my pic taken. Mailed a ticket that showed just as much. Went to the courthouse and brought the picture with me and had it dismissed since I obviously stopped at the intersection. Didn't pay a dime.

 

[SamSpade]

I can personalize this as incorrect as I have had to deal with this.
Was slowing down for a yellow light and the front of my vehicle was just over the wide white stripe and got my pic taken. Mailed a ticket that showed just as much. Went to the courthouse and brought the picture with me and had it dismissed since I obviously stopped at the intersection. Didn't pay a dime.

My experience - wasn't. One of the charges was that I drove a car without insurance. I had proof that I had NEVER lapsed in insurance since 1985.

Judge didn't give a crap - as I mentioned above. Pay or go to jail - I don't care about your evidence.

 

[Kyle]

Pay or go to jail - I don't care about your evidence.

Democracy Dies in Disdain.

 

[glhs837]

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that cameras are unfair because tourists and oblivions won't know where they are?

How about if you just stop for EVERY red light? Or obey the speed limit on EVERY road?



Shew!

This point has nothing to do with fair/unfair. Just factual evidence that RLCs do not have the benefits the "fact sheets" claim they do.

So according to you, there is NO way to fix the problem. Just endless excuses and "it's a money grab."
Well, with my solution, at least there will be more money in the coffers to be accounted for. And, people will think twice before writing that $1000 check the next time they decide to punch it through the yellow light

The only way to fix it is to do away with the profit motive. Require the system to be revenue neutral by remitting any excess beyond what's required for the companies profit back to citizens as a check. Once its not a money waterfall for the government, watch them go away.

$1000 dollar checks? Ha. Remember, here in MD its only $75 for a red light, and $40 for speeding. And the why is simple. Larger fines would draw more scrutiny and public backlash. Like the teller who sips .10 off of each account for years, the whole point is to find that sweet spot where you get the most money but draw the least incoming fire.

Same reason there is no insurance reporting. No points. Minimum friction, maximum money. Years back, the automated enforcement industry spent 600K lobbying MD lawmakers and ghos writing the laws for MDs automated enforcement issue. The restriction to school zones wasnt for safety, but so they could beat the opposition down with cries of "Think of the CHILDREN!!!!"

 

[glhs837]

I can personalize this as incorrect as I have had to deal with this.
Was slowing down for a yellow light and the front of my vehicle was just over the wide white stripe and got my pic taken. Mailed a ticket that showed just as much. Went to the courthouse and brought the picture with me and had it dismissed since I obviously stopped at the intersection. Didn't pay a dime.

Yep, there are cases like that. Not the rule though. RLCs easier than speeding to argue, especially if its an honest mistake. The argument against those isnt so much about accuracy, but about if they actually do any good.

 

[DaSDGuy]

My SO received a notice in the mail that she ran a red light in Howard County. It include a photo of her car with the plate clearly visible. She admitted to me that she did it, she was in a hurry to get to a Grandkids soccer game. She contacted the court and they said there are never any points in Maryland because the RLC only tickets the car, not the driver. Same thing for jail time - you can't get jail time because of something your car did. The only punishments they can give you is (a) prevent renewing the license for the car and (b) a lien is placed so you can't sell it without paying the fine. Not sure when/if the law was changed to punish a driver when they have no proof who the driver was.

 

[SamSpade]

Democracy Dies in Disdain.

And yet - I understand her disdain. This was traffic court, and the place is packed, and the people coming up are mostly the dregs of the county. One woman had her public defender try to make the case that her repeated drunken driving days were over and she was willing to do blah blah blah when the judge interrupted with "and yet she was picked up only last night for drunk driving - you know - the day before court".

Others, again, for drunken driving and arrive to court - drunk. Others, their cases so flimsy and they just need to be locked up. After listening to this crap hour after hour, day after day - yeah I get it. Shut up, pay up and get out of my court. I'm so tired of being told that these guys are stand up citizens who aren't guilty when you can read guilty from a hundred yards.

I sure as hell didn't like it. Heck the cop who wrote the ticket assured me it would likely get dropped before court anyway. But I get it.

 

[OccamsRazor]

The only way to fix it is to do away with the profit motive.

No. The only way to fix it is to make it hurt so much that people will think twice before trying to run a red light. And, what is the best way to make it hurt? Hike the fine so high that people won't think twice about trying it and getting caught.

 

[glhs837]

My SO received a notice in the mail that she ran a red light in Howard County. It include a photo of her car with the plate clearly visible. She admitted to me that she did it, she was in a hurry to get to a Grandkids soccer game. She contacted the court and they said there are never any points in Maryland because the RLC only tickets the car, not the driver. Same thing for jail time - you can't get jail time because of something your car did. The only punishments they can give you is (a) prevent renewing the license for the car and (b) a lien is placed so you can't sell it without paying the fine. Not sure when/if the law was changed to punish a driver when they have no proof who the driver was.

Yep, no reporting and a low fine to keep the gravy train in operation.

No. The only way to fix it is to make it hurt so much that people will think twice before trying to run a red light. And, what is the best way to make it hurt? Hike the fine so high that people won't think twice about trying it and getting caught.

But they will never do that because when the price gets high, people demand the systems be audited and accountable. Adding that rigor to the system reduces profitability. Which is the point, after all.

See you and others keep thinking these systems primary purpose is safety when its not. It's about making money for the vendor and the govt organization they are contracted with. Funny how people who realize why incumbents are so hard to unseat, and why our tax code remains a byzantine mess dont see this same sort of thing here.

 

[StmarysCity79]

Wife got a ticket from a speed camera up in DC area a few months back. It was on Piney Branch Road, and a section of it for no particular reason - not school or residences - is 25 mph. It's a four lane road with double yellow strip down it. At least, the part where the speed cam took showed this.

I used to go to church in Adelphi for a similar stretch of road along Adelphi Road near the U of M campus. It is actually SIX lanes - and the speed limit is, for a short distance, also 25 mph.

There is no reason whatsoever for these obscenely low speeds except - to generate tickets and collect fines. I live on a residential side street in St Mary's, and I rarely ever see people drive below 30.

There is no part of Piney Branch rd in DC that is four lanes of traffic. It is mostly one lane of traffic in both directions with a lane on either side for parking. Plus i can think of at least two schools and multiples residences along those blocks.

 

[LightRoasted]

For your consideration ...

This point has nothing to do with fair/unfair. Just factual evidence that RLCs do not have the benefits the "fact sheets" claim they do.

The only way to fix it is to do away with the profit motive. Require the system to be revenue neutral by remitting any excess beyond what's required for the companies profit back to citizens as a check. Once its not a money waterfall for the government, watch them go away.

$1000 dollar checks? Ha. Remember, here in MD its only $75 for a red light, and $40 for speeding. And the why is simple. Larger fines would draw more scrutiny and public backlash. Like the teller who sips .10 off of each account for years, the whole point is to find that sweet spot where you get the most money but draw the least incoming fire.

Same reason there is no insurance reporting. No points. Minimum friction, maximum money. Years back, the automated enforcement industry spent 600K lobbying MD lawmakers and ghos writing the laws for MDs automated enforcement issue. The restriction to school zones wasnt for safety, but so they could beat the opposition down with cries of "Think of the CHILDREN!!!!"

The way for everyone to avoid paying anything is this ... Only the car is ticketed, not the driver. So if there is more than one car in a household, all registered to one person, even with duel ownership, one but just force the government to perform due process by investigating who the actual driver was. How? By not acknowledging guilt and by telling them, in writing, that you own several vehicles, that are driven by many different people, and are unsure of who was driving the vehicle when the picture was taken. And, that you offer them no assistance in their investigation. Make sure to send it return registered receipt.

It does work.

Read the law and how it was written, and you'll see that this is a valid way to avoid paying.

 

[glhs837]

For your consideration ...



The way for everyone to avoid paying anything is this ... Only the car is ticketed, not the driver. So if there is more than one car in a household, all registered to one person, even with duel ownership, one but just force the government to perform due process by investigating who the actual driver was. How? By not acknowledging guilt and by telling them, in writing, that you own several vehicles, that are driven by many different people, and are unsure of who was driving the vehicle when the picture was taken. And, that you offer them no assistance in their investigation. Make sure to send it return registered receipt.

It does work.

Read the law and how it was written, and you'll see that this is a valid way to avoid paying.

Nope, turn in someone else, or you pay. Thats the way its written. Of course, each county/municipality that installs them writes thier own law that cannot break the few state requirements like the trigger limits and reporting and school zone limits

There is no part of Piney Branch rd in DC that is four lanes of traffic. It is mostly one lane of traffic in both directions with a lane on either side for parking. Plus i can think of at least two schools and multiples residences along those blocks.

Seems Piney Branch in DC is pretty short, a couple blocks. Sam, you sure it was DC and not VA or MD?

 

[LightRoasted]

For your consideration ...

Nope, turn in someone else, or you pay. Thats the way its written. Of course, each county/municipality that installs them writes thier own law that cannot break the few state requirements like the trigger limits and reporting and school zone limits

There is no law that can compel a person to bear witness against themselves, or to provide, voluntarily or not, evidence against another person. The burden of proof falls on the police dept that issued the ticket. There is an address on each notice that has an address with which to mail any contestation, well prior to any court date. Why would someone voluntarily admit guilt by blindly paying the fine, or supply any evidence, (ratting out someone), if there is a way to bring into question of who was actually "operating the vehicle"? Being unclear of who was "operating the vehicle" is rational. Saying that one has multiple vehicles, with multiple drivers, and not being sure who was driving at the time, is enough evidence to bring doubt into question, and satisfies the requirements of (i) and (ii). And, if after sending that, if the court still wants to see you in court, state the same, and in addition demand a proper investigation by the police into who was the actual driver. What does one have to lose? $40 and court costs? By not challenging these money grab schemes, it will continue. No agency is going to spend time investigating something over a $40 questionable citation.

Here is State law that applies to a challenge ... https://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2022/transportation/title-21/subtitle-8/section-21-809/

(3) To satisfy the evidentiary burden under paragraph (1)(ii) of this subsection, the person named in the citation shall provide to the District Court a letter, sworn to or affirmed by the person and mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, that:

(i) States that the person named in the citation was not operating the vehicle at the time of the violation; and

(ii) Includes any other corroborating evidence.

(4) (i) If the District Court finds that the person named in the citation was not operating the vehicle at the time of the violation or receives evidence under paragraph (3) of this subsection identifying the person driving the vehicle at the time of the violation, the clerk of the court shall provide to the agency issuing the citation a copy of any evidence substantiating who was operating the vehicle at the time of the violation.

(ii) On receipt of substantiating evidence from the District Court under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph, an agency may issue a citation as provided in subsection (d) of this section to the person who the evidence indicates was operating the vehicle at the time of the violation.

 

[glhs837]

For your consideration ...



There is no law that can compel a person to bear witness against themselves, or to provide, voluntarily or not, evidence against another person. The burden of proof falls on the police dept that issued the ticket. There is an address on each notice that has an address with which to mail any contestation, well prior to any court date. Why would someone voluntarily admit guilt by blindly paying the fine, or supply any evidence, (ratting out someone), if there is a way to bring into question of who was actually "operating the vehicle"? Being unclear of who was "operating the vehicle" is rational. Saying that one has multiple vehicles, with multiple drivers, and not being sure who was driving at the time, is enough evidence to bring doubt into question, and satisfies the requirements of (i) and (ii). And, if after sending that, if the court still wants to see you in court, state the same, and in addition demand a proper investigation by the police into who was the actual driver. What does one have to lose? $40 and court costs? By not challenging these money grab schemes, it will continue. No agency is going to spend time investigating something over a $40 questionable citation.

Here is State law that applies to a challenge ... https://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2022/transportation/title-21/subtitle-8/section-21-809/

(3) To satisfy the evidentiary burden under paragraph (1)(ii) of this subsection, the person named in the citation shall provide to the District Court a letter, sworn to or affirmed by the person and mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, that:

(i) States that the person named in the citation was not operating the vehicle at the time of the violation; and

(ii) Includes any other corroborating evidence.

(4) (i) If the District Court finds that the person named in the citation was not operating the vehicle at the time of the violation or receives evidence under paragraph (3) of this subsection identifying the person driving the vehicle at the time of the violation, the clerk of the court shall provide to the agency issuing the citation a copy of any evidence substantiating who was operating the vehicle at the time of the violation.

(ii) On receipt of substantiating evidence from the District Court under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph, an agency may issue a citation as provided in subsection (d) of this section to the person who the evidence indicates was operating the vehicle at the time of the violation.

Thats been tried. Its legally like a parking ticket, where they don't have to prove who parked there, the owner is responsible. You can try, and you will indeed be out court costs and the time to attend. And your $40 bucks. The listed law is what allows you to make your buddy who was driving give you or pay the $40. Its not a pathway no to pay.