The American people are embarrassingly stupid

[Larry Gude]

I'm sorry...

What FDR did during the Great Depression was LEAD. it wasnt that all of the New Deal worked or didn't work, it was he didn't stop trying, if it didn't work, he tried something else. He probably did more to save this country then any president since Lincoln. There was he did that was wrong, like not telling Truman ANYTHING, but without him who knows what would have happened, either during the Great Depression or WW2.

...but that just can't stand. I've had too many conversations with my elders about this time period. Their consensus is he, and wonderful government intervention, made the depression deeper and longer than it would have been had he not turned the nation on it's head with his socialist programs.

It is sad, to me, to hold this man up as some sort of indispensable figure in our history. No one in our history acted more like a king, the very antithesis of American identity, than he. No one attacked the fabric of our nation more than he. No one is more responsible for the modern sense of entitlement than he. For Gods sake, the man tried to destroy the Supreme Court and remake THAT in his image.

He's a close to a tyrant as we ever had and he got duped and used by Churchill to fix his nations failures and by Stalin into sowing the seeds of the Cold War and the global raise of communism.

 

[Larry Gude]

There is no...

Second gunmen, grassy knolls, magic bullets.
Come on. You've seen the footage!



Also wasn't it his initiative that put man on the moon before 1970.

...JFK conspiracy; There are only the facts and the number of them which a person chooses to accept. Or not.

I give the guy credit for the space program. I also hold him in contempt for his subverting of US national interest with his personal war with Castro. That, Castro's fear of assassination at the hands of the Kennedy boys, was as much the genisis of the missile crisis as anything else.

 

[aps45819]

yeah... committing adultry is always a great thing; especially if you are president of the US.

... but with the hottest babe of the era and then had his daddy's mob buddies shut her up.
Not saying it was the moral high ground, but imagine what kind of influence it would take to accomplish that today.

 

[forestal]

How about not starting WW3 over the cuban missile crisis and resolving it peacefully?

Or maybe it's just Zogby pollers:


Please name me one thing - just one - that would qualify Kennedy as a "great" President. Just one.

As for FDR - many of the financial and social problems we're having today stem from his "New Deal" crap. And when the Supreme Court found parts of the New Deal unconstitutional, good ol' FDR proposed his court-packing bill to thwart them (so much for Checks and Balances). Let's also mention that he had 120,000 Japanese-Americans forced into internment camps during WWII.

As far as Presidents go, as opposed to cult of personality, Nixon was a FAR better President than either Kennedy OR FDR.

 

[forestal]

Keeps you busy so you don't have time to make the worst military blunder in 2000 years.

yeah... committing adultry is always a great thing; especially if you are president of the US.

 

[Larry Gude]

2000 years?

Keeps you busy so you don't have time to make the worst military blunder in 2000 years.

Do you intentionally say things to undermine yourself or is it accidental?

 

[scottrobts]

Do you intentionally say things to undermine yourself or is it accidental?

I would have to say Germany invading the Soviet Union before their Western flank was secure or declaring war on the United States would probably easily qualify as the greatest military blunders of the 20th Century, and there are so many to choose from in the 19th century between the American Civil War, the War of 1812, and Napolean alone that could rival those. The war in Iraq was a mistake in execution, not the greatest blunder since the Romans thought the Alps couldn't be crossed.

 

[SamSpade]

Do you intentionally say things to undermine yourself or is it accidental?

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least four, and they're within the last two HUNDRED years.

The Little Bighorn
The Maginot Line
Napoleon's invasion of Russia
Hitler's invasion of Russia

I can also think of colossal blunders by things people did NOT do:

Hannibal NOT attacking Rome after Cannae
Hitler not invading England after Dunkirk
Attila turning back from Rome
Macarthur not bombing the Yalu River bridges

There were campaigns that after a while proved utterly idiotic -

Montgomery's Market Garden campaign - the idea being that you could supply
troops in WW2 entirely by air drops.

And I'm just pulling this from memory. Anyone else?

 

[SamSpade]

I would have to say Germany invading the Soviet Union before their Western flank was secure or declaring war on the United States would probably easily qualify as the greatest military blunders of the 20th Century, and there are so many to choose from in the 19th century between the American Civil War, the War of 1812, and Napolean alone that could rival those. The war in Iraq was a mistake in execution, not the greatest blunder since the Romans thought the Alps couldn't be crossed.

Oh - forgot - the Second Punic War...

The Battle of the Trebia River and

The Battle of Lake Trasimene - probably the most devastating ambush in human history, where an entire consular army was either destroyed or captured, with very few casualties on the Carthaginian side. Gaius Flaminius basically camped lakeside and had no escape, and his supply lines easily cut off. It was a slaughter.

 

[SamSpade]

the War of 1812.

A total disaster. Very unpopular, and before long it was referred to as "Madison's Little War".

 

[Lugnut]

This seems like a good thread to request reading recommendations in.

I'm on a history kick and almost finished with a biography of Chesty Puller. Looking for the next book, any ideas?

 

[SamSpade]

I'm amused by two things, here. One is that a somewhat intelligent person can make such an absurd claim who obviously has very little knowledge of military history of the last 2000 years. There's little doubt that when you lead forces into a suicide ambush or decide on a campaign that ends in failure or otherwise causes you to lose a war or to surrender - those would be "blunders". Hitler's invasion of Russia cost him the war, without question.

But we defeated Saddam. We removed the Baathists from power. While we have not secured the peace - there's still gonna be unrest there - we won the war.

This could prove to be a *political* blunder - but it's not a military one.

 

[PsyOps]

Keeps you busy so you don't have time to make the worst military blunder in 2000 years.

You know I read yur posts pretty carefully and I am curious about something... Have you even read the quotes associated with your profiole?

 

[SamSpade]

This seems like a good thread to request reading recommendations in.

I'm on a history kick and almost finished with a biography of Chesty Puller. Looking for the next book, any ideas?

Most folks here know I absolutely love the story of the Revolution. How about "1776" by David McCullough?

 

[Hessian]

My Historical referencing friends...

Thank you.

There are so few that can draw comparison or inspiration from history:and it shows in the Zogby poll.

Yet YOU, you forumites who debate events, and add perspective to your arguments...
You should have the right to muzzle the hoard of non-thinkers but...
the Federalist party is dead.
And MTV & Network news has captured this generation.

BTW:
Lincoln was a lousy president,
Theodore Roosevelt is second behind Washington.

 

[Larry Gude]

Lady's and gentlemen...

...I give you Thermopylae.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ha!

BTW:
Lincoln was a lousy president,
Theodore Roosevelt is second behind Washington.

Lincoln was one of our best my friend!

 

[PsyOps]

This could prove to be a *political* blunder - but it's not a military one.

I'm not convinced this is a political blunder. I'm amazed at how impatient Americans have become. These things take time. You don't topple a regime, uproot their military- and infra-structure, wave the magic wand and WHA La... instant peace and democracy. There are many vying for power in Iraq. This is how nations are built sometimes. This is how the US was built.

I keep trying to compare post-WWII with this because we completely decimated that country in every imaginable way. It took Germany 10 years to gain their sovereignty. Even at that, there was still chaos in Berlin for several years to follow. Three years and Iraq is sovereign. Now they have the growing pains of figuring out how they are going to look in the future. But we have progressed remarkably fast in Iraq.

Perhaps it’s a lot like the internet. When cable ISPs came along they promised fast connections. And they are for the most part. So, based on that we developed an expectation that it would be fast ALL THE TIME. Then one day there is a problem and it’s not fast. Mr. Internet gets impatient, starts clicking his mouse furiously, slamming the desk and demanding the website pop up faster only to find that all-too-familiar “The page cannot be displayed”. This is the mindset of Americans today. We expect, no DEMAND, instantaneous results. This has carried over to this war. Compound this with our weak stomach of long wars and political disparities and you have a recipe for failure.

I remain optimistic because (with the exception of Viet Nam) we have been overwhelmingly successful in winning wars both militarily and politically. Because the USSR stabbed us in the back and succeeded in occupying half of Europe, and remained a global threat for decades, did we view WWII as a loss? No! Because we were only able to keep half of Korea free from communism did we view that conflict as a loss? No! Because we are experiencing setbacks in the Iraq war, why then are we so quick to deem this a loss? The only loss I see is the loss of American will and resolve.

 

[Larry Gude]

Must reads...

This seems like a good thread to request reading recommendations in.

I'm on a history kick and almost finished with a biography of Chesty Puller. Looking for the next book, any ideas?

Shelby Footes Civil War Trilogy

Bruce Cattons Civil War triliogy

Lincoln; Team of Rivals

Keegan; First World War

Keegan; Second World War

Guns, Germs and Steel

And for some contemporary insight; The Sling and the Stone

That'll keep yah busy for awhile!

 

[smoothmarine187]

This seems like a good thread to request reading recommendations in.

I'm on a history kick and almost finished with a biography of Chesty Puller. Looking for the next book, any ideas?

Hey! your not allowed to read that book.......lol........It was damn good though wasn't it!