The Hypocrisy of the Western Christian Response
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b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Not all Christians. There are Christian law groups, specifically the ACLJ, and churches, mostly non-denominational, that support these accused and legal actions for their freedom, and offer monitory support and prayer for their safety and release.
We are small. The direct question is, where are the large Christian denominations, and the really large groups, specifically the Catholic and Mormon, on these issues?
I ask the Catholic church to defend this statement: “Talk about extreme, militant Islamists and the atrocities that they have perpetrated globally might undercut the positive achievements that we Catholics have attained in our inter-religious dialogue with devout Muslims.”
What positive achievements? The same positive achievements that occurred from 1937 - 1945 with the silent church that resulted in 6,000,000 peoples of a certain religious affiliation being exterminated?
Where is their visible support - not just lip service - but public political, legal and monetary actions to free those oppressed? Not just being more "compassionate and inclusive", but really standing up publicly for what is Biblical and just?
Surely not at the forefront. I'm not being mean, just real.
We are small. The direct question is, where are the large Christian denominations, and the really large groups, specifically the Catholic and Mormon, on these issues?
I ask the Catholic church to defend this statement: “Talk about extreme, militant Islamists and the atrocities that they have perpetrated globally might undercut the positive achievements that we Catholics have attained in our inter-religious dialogue with devout Muslims.”
What positive achievements? The same positive achievements that occurred from 1937 - 1945 with the silent church that resulted in 6,000,000 peoples of a certain religious affiliation being exterminated?
Where is their visible support - not just lip service - but public political, legal and monetary actions to free those oppressed? Not just being more "compassionate and inclusive", but really standing up publicly for what is Biblical and just?
Surely not at the forefront. I'm not being mean, just real.
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Radiant1
Soul Probe
There's no need to defend it. It's absolutely true. Militant Islam WILL undercut positive achievements. Btw, what was the original context of the bishop's quote? And, is it a full quote? (Hint: It's not).
As to the issue at hand, Bibi and other persecuted Christians in Islamic countries, what would you have the Church do? Call for a crusade? Storm the prison walls with para-military personnel? Or respond in kind by persecuting Muslims, perhaps? The Vatican tends to work in larger more diplomatic ways these days, i.e. governments. If that's not at the forefront, then I don't know what is. :shrug:
I have no doubt that the woman is receiving what help she can on a localized basis. I also have no doubt that it's not overly publicized as to avoid further persecutions. She's certainly not the only one, and her plight is nothing new; the Church has been dealing with them for the majority of it's existence.
Vatican City State « Christian & Church Persecution
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
No, no crusade. Just be up front publicly about what is going on. Dialog is fine. We all know what the dialog of the jihadist's and Imam's are - and they state every time they have a camera their goal of a Caliphate and Islam domination of the world.
As I stated, outside of a few groups, primarily led by non-denominational church and legal groups that are openly calling on US congressional and executive response and legal actions to these countries that are holding people hostage, even to the point of death of unknown thousands persecuted around the world by Islam. The rest of non-Islam must be out front as well, in public view, pounding the drums from other Muslims and the rest of the world, with international condemnation and action with teeth against the jihadists leadership by openly calling them out.
The Catholic church must be one of the leaders, along with the other large Protestant denominations, and the international community that cry foul against any kind of western illegality against Islam, by condemning and demanding legal, international actions against Islam for these violations of human rights.
If we (non-Islam) continue to snivel and sit around whining, wringing our hands and continue do nothing other than some lip service, it will only get much, much worse.
Islam is laughing at Christendom's utterly feeble response, if it can even be called that.
As I stated, outside of a few groups, primarily led by non-denominational church and legal groups that are openly calling on US congressional and executive response and legal actions to these countries that are holding people hostage, even to the point of death of unknown thousands persecuted around the world by Islam. The rest of non-Islam must be out front as well, in public view, pounding the drums from other Muslims and the rest of the world, with international condemnation and action with teeth against the jihadists leadership by openly calling them out.
The Catholic church must be one of the leaders, along with the other large Protestant denominations, and the international community that cry foul against any kind of western illegality against Islam, by condemning and demanding legal, international actions against Islam for these violations of human rights.
If we (non-Islam) continue to snivel and sit around whining, wringing our hands and continue do nothing other than some lip service, it will only get much, much worse.
Islam is laughing at Christendom's utterly feeble response, if it can even be called that.
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b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Who's surprised, other than feel-good, bleeding heart "why don't they like us?" liberals?
The surprise to me is the nearly lack of response to the threat, like it will just go away.
aps45819
24/7 Single Dad
Who's surprised, other than feel-good, bleeding heart "why don't they like us?" liberals?
The surprise to me is the nearly lack of response to the threat, like it will just go away.
What response do you expect from an administration lead by a muslim?
Radiant1
Soul Probe
The surprise to me is the nearly lack of response to the threat, like it will just go away.
But there is a response to the threat, as I pointed out, and nobody is trying to hide it. Did you read the links I gave? Btw, I don't see the non-denominationals crying foul publicly anymore than I do the Catholics, Anglicans, or Mormons, etc, but that doesn't mean they don't. In fact, the Catholic Church has been one of the largest proponents of human rights for a very, very long time now even when fellow Christians chastise us for it, go figure. I really don't see what the beef is here, other than the OP article (and you) taking a jab at the Catholic Church for, in this case, some irrational and/or emotional reason.
You want the Vatican to be more public in it's outcry more than it already is, but what do you suppose will happen if the Vatican puts out a worldwide public statement against Islamic persecution? I can tell you what will happen because it's happened before, more persecution of and violence toward Christians. That wouldn't exactly be effective now would it.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Winner winner chicken dinner.
Where is the organized outrage by Protestant denoms regarding the current administration's war on religious freedom. Crickets.....
Where are all of the Protestant denoms (especially the youth) every year at the Rally for Life downtown in January? They are not there.....
Where are all of the Protestant denoms on Lobby Night in Annapolis every February? They are not there.....
Puuuuuulease with your faux outrage B23hqb with what the Catholic Church doesn't speak out for or against. Their record pummels both yours and your church's!
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
What record would that be? Human rights? Everybody is for human rights, right? Without teeth to enforce human rights, all the talk from every religious organization means nothing.
Jay Sekulow and the ACLJ, as I mentioned in my first post, are the visible leaders. He and his group have been on this and other peeps around the world being persecuted for religious purposes, including the person Bibbi mentioned in the OP, publicly, lobbying congress and the administration, for years. Nearly 25 years, to be exact. Read the home page. Very impressive.
Jay Sekulow, Attorney | Chief Counsel of American Center for Law and Justice ACLJ
I don't see any other major religious group doing anything like that - not just giving lip service, but actually advocating legally and politically. Non-denominational groups like mine and individuals support ACLJ and the like, simply because we believe it is the right, Christian, thing to do.
It's no outrage. Just observations and the deafening silence of what is not being put forth to defend religious freedoms, inside and outside the US from the large denominations and your rcc.
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Radiant1
Soul Probe
That's because you don't want to even when it's been shown to you. But that's ok, it's what we've come to expect from you.
ats you on the head:
Zguy28
New Member
So much bickering over ourselves...
Meanwhile our sister languishes in prison.
Persecution Blog: ASIA BIBI
Meanwhile our sister languishes in prison.
Persecution Blog: ASIA BIBI
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
That's because you don't want to even when it's been shown to you. But that's ok, it's what we've come to expect from you.
You show your link. Three items from early and June 2013, concerning Syria. Nice speeches.
The rest of your link shows 2010 and earlier. Laughable three years later. Not a lot being done today, is there? At least that what you cite. Flowery words, speeches, and demands will get nothing against Islam without direct government interdiction..
Again, and again, until the hammer is answered with a bigger hammer, i.e., painful sanctions, we, Christendom, continue to be denigrated as weak and laughable.
As Zguy stated, Bibi languishes, along with Pastor Saeed Abedini, an American from Idaho jailed in Iran for preaching the gospel. The only Christian response to Abedini I can find is the ACLJ, as far as I can find. Where's the rest of western Christianity on that?
Today, Iran's leader tweeted, in English, "Our relationship w/ the world is based on Iranian's nation's interest. In #Geneva agreement world powers surrendered to Iranian's nation will".
That is what they, and Islam, think of Christendom response.
If you want to feel good about a pope's or bishops speech, along with leaders of other large denominations lip service of condemnations against persecution of non-Islamists, go for it. Until they get into congress's ear and force action, nothing will change except for the rising body count of Christians.
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Radiant1
Soul Probe
How does one get direct government involvement? With speeches and demands, go figure.
A "bigger hammer" such as sanctions will only create a domino effect of more victims east and west. What, according to you, does the bible say we should do in such a situation? I certainly don't think Christ tells us to create more victims.
I don't suppose you've heard of Aid To The Church In Need or the Masihi Foundation, have you? And what exactly has the ACLJ done for Asia Bibi? She's still in prison and Pakistan still has it's anti-blasphemy laws.
Iran doesn't think much of "Christendom" anymore than "Christendom" thinks of Iran. So what?
The Vatican has ambassadors to the majority of the world's nations, including the US of course. I would think the Vatican would have Congress' ear as much as it can from a secular entity. And yes, it is a secular entity, which is why the ACLJ hasn't moved Congress to act either.
Your emotional response to the OP article is understandable but keep your beef where it belongs, with Pakistan. It's not with Catholics or Mormons or any other denomination you happen to dislike.
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
The complaint is not with Pakistan or Iran - it is with Islam, and the lack of response to it. And yes, the Vatican has proved over and over again how effective they are at stopping the punishment and murder of Christians in Africa, the mid-East, India and China. Add that up with the effectiveness of the protestant denominations, and man, we really have a grip on the situation, don't we?
I give it up for the Christians in those regions of the world - they are really Christians - being persecuted and murdered for their belief. They do not back down from their beliefs, like so many in the west do when the going gets a bit tough: "What? I actually have to stand up for the church or the Bible? In public"?
The OP is right on the nose - the hypocrisy of Christendom. And how weak it is.
Just because I don't like catholics or mormons - what a hoot!
Is that all ya got?
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Islam is ALL in for world domination. That is their mission statement.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
The complaint is not with Pakistan or Iran - it is with Islam, and the lack of response to it. And yes, the Vatican has proved over and over again how effective they are at stopping the punishment and murder of Christians in Africa, the mid-East, India and China. Add that up with the effectiveness of the protestant denominations, and man, we really have a grip on the situation, don't we?
I give it up for the Christians in those regions of the world - they are really Christians - being persecuted and murdered for their belief. They do not back down from their beliefs, like so many in the west do when the going gets a bit tough: "What? I actually have to stand up for the church or the Bible? In public"?
The OP is right on the nose - the hypocrisy of Christendom. And how weak it is.
Just because I don't like catholics or mormons - what a hoot!
Is that all ya got?
If your beef is with Islam only, fair enough; however, your first post in this thread (#2) leads one to believe differently. :shrug:
You didn't answer my question. I truly want to know your opinion, so I'll ask again. What, according to you, does the bible say we should do in such a situation? Or, let me rephrase it to be more specific. According to you, how does Christ say we should respond to such a situation as militant Islam?
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b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Stand up for the Word of God. And that does not mean just stand idly by and be annihilated or watch others be done in the same.
And, no, you are still wrong. My beef here is with the Christian establishment of the west - just standing by and turning the other proverbial cheek - as long as it is not our cheek.
To our brethern in the REAL world where being a Christian is life threatening at the least:
"Yo, all you bros over there, we're behind you 100%, or at least until our governments tell us to shut up. We're praying for you all the time, but there really is nothing we can do for you. Just believe us - we are behind you and your cause 100% - from half a world away. Sure sucks to be a Christian in your part of the world, but hey, we'll see you in heaven, bros and sisters!"
Resisting attack and harm to ourselves or others cannot be confused with taking personal vengeance. Don't try and give me the "turn the other cheek". That concerns personal insult, not life-threatening situations.
Nowhere in the Bible does God give any instruction for dealing with the instruments or commission of crimes. He always, everytime, focuses on the consequences for an individual for their actions.
It is up to us to police ourselves, or somebody else will. That's why we have laws, a so called judicial system, judges, governments, religious organizations.
I would suggest you take the so-called radiance coming forth from you and stuff it right back into the orifice it spewed forth from.
Self-defense, or national defense, is very Biblical. Just so long as it is not personal or just plain vengeful. That means, IMHO, preventative maintenance.
MMDad
Lem Putt
As if that is not the goal of most religions. You surely can admit that is the goal of Christianity, can't you?