The Illusion of Choice: Romney vs Obama

[FromTexas]

Who said anything about Huntsman? This discussion only mentioned Gary Johnson who is a two-term governor and who will be on the ballot come November.

While it is true that anyone can become corrupt, Republicans and Democrats have already proven for decades that they are in fact corrupt. Why would you not at least try a different party? Especially a party such as the Libertarian party who's princples stand on limited constitutional government, which is in line with the origin of this nation.

Sorry. I did not read the whole thing and someone was recently advocating a Huntsman independent run to me; signals crossed. Same point, though... while my views skew more to Libertarian, I don't count on any of them behaving any different as a party without motivation from the populus. Right now, there is heavy motivation by the people for fiscal control.

I am actually for a no party system. It is easier to manipulate a party controlled by a few than it is to manipulate a system run by many independents. :shrug:

Until such time, I will make my judgements based on my view of who is most likely to 'move the football' in the direction I want it to go.

 

[FoundingFather]

I don't know how I can make it more clear... there are HUGE differences between Obama and Romney.

Then you clearly do not uderstand the significance of their similarities. One of your arguments is that their agreements on unspoken issues are not important because the voters are too ignorant to realize them. That does not make the similarities any less true. The bottom line is that neither is a strong defender of individual freedom and individual responsibility. I acknowledge some the differences you mentioned, but I argue that they are insignificant because both of their ideologies are much closer to totalitarianism than liberty. In a country that was founded on liberty, this makes all the difference.

Here is a short clip that visually illustrates my point:

The Left-Right Deception - YouTube

 

[The Dude]

There was a great Simpsons episode about this very thing, but it was Clinton and Dole.

All of this also sounds like the September 11 wackos, the Birth Certificate nutjobs and that spazz who came out and said the end of the world going to be last year and actually got some traction.

I think some of you people give the douches in Washington too much credit...they know much less about what they are doing then they would care to admit.

 

[Toxick]

The reality is that a vote for anyone but Romney is a vote for Obama.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.






Good!

Put up someone who doesn't SUCK next time, and I'll vote for him.


I say a vote for Romney is a vote for Obama, and vice-versa.

 

[b23hqb]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.






Good!

Put up someone who doesn't SUCK next time, and I'll vote for him.


I say a vote for Romney is a vote for Obama, and vice-versa.

OK. So what ya gonna do? If Obama gets re-elected, you and the USA will really be sucking. Period. End of story and end of the USA as history has known us.

If Romney does not get elected, we will really never know how much better Romney could be, or how much less worse off we would be.

Your choice.

The world is watching.

 

[FoundingFather]

OK. So what ya gonna do? If Obama gets re-elected, you and the USA will really be sucking. Period. End of story and end of the USA as history has known us.

If Romney does not get elected, we will really never know how much better Romney could be, or how much less worse off we would be.

Your choice.

The world is watching.

We know how it will end. The same way the past administrations have ended. Bigger government and less individual freedom. We have been bouncing back and forth between Democrat and Republican and the result has been the same. Don't be fooled into thinking this time will be any different.

 

[b23hqb]

We know how it will end. The same way the past administrations have ended. Bigger government and less individual freedom. We have been bouncing back and forth between Democrat and Republican and the result has been the same. Don't be fooled into thinking this time will be any different.

Don't be fooled yourself. Doing nothing and voting the current marxist for another four years leaves no doubt about bigger government and less individual freedoms.

Doing nothing in attempts to slow down and hopefully stop your thought process guarantees nothing can be done.

Are you that much of a hopeless, wring-your-hands loser? Both ways?

Reading your posts, I believe you are nothing more than an apologist for obama, and doing nothing more than discouraging people to vote at all unless they vote for the current occupant of the WH.

Any other vote would be wasted, right? In your opinion?

 

[FoundingFather]

Don't be fooled yourself. Doing nothing and voting the current marxist for another four years leaves no doubt about bigger government and less individual freedoms.

Doing nothing in attempts to slow down and hopefully stop your thought process guarantees nothing can be done.

Are you that much of a hopeless, wring-your-hands loser? Both ways?

Reading your posts, I believe you are nothing more than an apologist for obama, and doing nothing more than discouraging people to vote at all unless they vote for the current occupant of the WH.

Any other vote would be wasted, right? In your opinion?

You clearly have not read my posts or either have extremly poor reading comprehension. I have never once suggested not voting, voting for Obama, or voting for Romney. What I have suggested is to vote for Gary Johnson.

I have been adamently suggesting people open their minds to an alternative view point and realize that the two mainstream parties are much alike and only reach change will come from voting into office advocates of individual freedom and responsibility. Neither Romney or Obama fit this description, but Gary Johnson does.

 

[b23hqb]

You clearly have not read my posts or either have extremly poor reading comprehension. I have never once suggested not voting, voting for Obama, or voting for Romney. What I have suggested is to vote for Gary Johnson.

I have been adamently suggesting people open their minds to an alternative view point and realize that the two mainstream parties are much alike and only reach change will come from voting into office advocates of individual freedom and responsibility. Neither Romney or Obama fit this description, but Gary Johnson does.

Doesn't matter whether you actually typed "not voting, voting for Obama, or voting for Romney". A simple diagnosing of the thrust of your statements, (read between the lines, if you will) are not limited to just voting for Johnson.

It is a blatant, in your face statement by you, that no matter who one votes for outside of the no-chance for anything Gary Johnson, nothing will ever change.

That is your loser attitude: Either vote for my guy who has probably no chance of even cracking 4 - 5% of the vote count, of which about 95% would be votes not for Romney. That could very easily swing the election to the marxist in charge.

You are not thinking of anything other than giving the election to Obama.

Question: Truthfully, would you prefer another four years of obama outright, or a new four years of a substantially different, but not libertarian enough in your eyes, Romney?

You are a tool, just like thatguy and others, whether you think so or not, for the obama campaign. And the Marxists are using you and yours for their gain.

The Obama camp loves you, because you can make the difference between Obama and Romney, in favor of Obama.

 

[FoundingFather]

Doesn't matter whether you actually typed "not voting, voting for Obama, or voting for Romney". A simple diagnosing of the thrust of your statements, (read between the lines, if you will) are not limited to just voting for Johnson.

It is a blatant, in your face statement by you, that no matter who one votes for outside of the no-chance for anything Gary Johnson, nothing will ever change.

That is your loser attitude: Either vote for my guy who has probably no chance of even cracking 4 - 5% of the vote count, of which about 95% would be votes not for Romney. That could very easily swing the election to the marxist in charge.

You are not thinking of anything other than giving the election to Obama.

Question: Truthfully, would you prefer another four years of obama outright, or a new four years of a substantially different, but not libertarian enough in your eyes, Romney?

You are a tool, just like thatguy and others, whether you think so or not, for the obama campaign. And the Marxists are using you and yours for their gain.

The Obama camp loves you, because you can make the difference between Obama and Romney, in favor of Obama.

If you read my posts and understood them, you would already know that my answer to that question would be: I am indifferent between Romney and Obama because they are fundamentally the same. The end result will be the same. The government will be bigger and more powerful after either's term, while you will have lost more freedom.

You are a fool who plays into the game of the political elite. They thank you for your vote to support tyranny and the enslavement of the American people.

 

[PsyOps]

Then you clearly do not uderstand the significance of their similarities. One of your arguments is that their agreements on unspoken issues are not important because the voters are too ignorant to realize them. That does not make the similarities any less true. The bottom line is that neither is a strong defender of individual freedom and individual responsibility. I acknowledge some the differences you mentioned, but I argue that they are insignificant because both of their ideologies are much closer to totalitarianism than liberty. In a country that was founded on liberty, this makes all the difference.

Here is a short clip that visually illustrates my point:

The Left-Right Deception - YouTube

None of this makes Romney a socialist, not even in the loosest definition of the term.

I'm not making a case that Romney is even remotely the best possible candidate. During the primary I struggled over who fit my conservative views. Not one of them was a perfect fit. After a lot of discussion Paul was it. I didn't go outside of the candidate pool. I chose from what we had. I did this because I knew going outside the pool would be pointless. That's where we are now. It's my primary desire have the most conservative guy in there; but that’s not what we got. Now I am at a point where I have to pick from the available pool, because going outside that pool is pointless. My primary desire now is to get Obama out of there and hope for a congress that will get our agenda accomplished. I’m not enamored with who gets in the WH. Congress is where things get done. Congress is where we need to get the power shifted back to the right. If the house and senate can fall in the hands of conservatives then I don't really care who occupies the WH.

 

[FreedomFan]

Now I am at a point where I have to pick from the available pool, because going outside that pool is pointless.

See, this is antithetical to me.

Hundredth monkey effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As long as we stick by your advocated construct, the 100th monkey will never get it, and we'll never have a chance at taking our country back. But once the 100th monkey figures it out, we're all good. I think we might be around the 59th monkey, but it's not a linear scale.

I have friends that think the same way I do, but their strategy is to stay part of the GOP and move it slowly, bit by bit toward their particular flavor. I simply can't abide that; I don't think there's a snowball's chance.

 

[FoundingFather]

None of this makes Romney a socialist, not even in the loosest definition of the term.

I'm not making a case that Romney is even remotely the best possible candidate. During the primary I struggled over who fit my conservative views. Not one of them was a perfect fit. After a lot of discussion Paul was it. I didn't go outside of the candidate pool. I chose from what we had. I did this because I knew going outside the pool would be pointless. That's where we are now. It's my primary desire have the most conservative guy in there; but that’s not what we got. Now I am at a point where I have to pick from the available pool, because going outside that pool is pointless. My primary desire now is to get Obama out of there and hope for a congress that will get our agenda accomplished. I’m not enamored with who gets in the WH. Congress is where things get done. Congress is where we need to get the power shifted back to the right. If the house and senate can fall in the hands of conservatives then I don't really care who occupies the WH.

I've never called Romney a socialist. What I said is that he is a collectivist also known as a statist. Wherever you place Romney on the sacle of left to right, it doesn't matter. Socialism, fascism, communism are just different forms of collectivism. Yes, those ideologies have differences, but all share the same fundamental idea of big government.

I understand that you are not specifically making the case for Romney. But again, the power doesn't need to be shifted to the right, it needs to be shifted away from government and to the people. Voting the "other guy" out of office will do nothing to promote any real change. We must educate the voters and lead by example by voting based on the Constitution of the USA. These politicians, both Republican and Democrat, take an oath to support and defend the Constitution, but instead disgrace it. That is treason in my mind. The line in the sand must be drawn. They must be held accountable.

Futhermore, if you supported Ron Paul, you should be disgusted with how he was treated by the GOP. They demonized him, stole some of his elected delegates and gave them to Romney, and then changed the nomination rules on the spot at the convention with a clear dissention among the people in attendance. How can you support them after that? The GOP is corrupt and shifting power their way will do nothing but perpetuate a corrupt system.

 

[PsyOps]

See, this is antithetical to me.

Hundredth monkey effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As long as we stick by your advocated construct, the 100th monkey will never get it, and we'll never have a chance at taking our country back. But once the 100th monkey figures it out, we're all good. I think we might be around the 59th monkey, but it's not a linear scale.

I have friends that think the same way I do, but their strategy is to stay part of the GOP and move it slowly, bit by bit toward their particular flavor. I simply can't abide that; I don't think there's a snowball's chance.

The unfortunate thing about politics is choices boil down to who is willing to run and of those who gets the most popularity. And, of course, money. That’s just an unfortunate fact. This is how our system has worked from the beginning. It took me a while to break out of certain post-911 paradigms to see where we have gone wrong on so many things. Paul’s foreign policy scared the crap out of me. But, as I mentioned before, after lots of discussion with Larry and other Ron Paulers I started seeing – all kookiness aside – that Ron Paul is far more in touch with where our government needs to be and how it is framed by the constitution. He wasn’t popular, and I knew he likely wasn’t going to get the nomination. But I had to vote my conscience.

But elections work a lot like football games. It’s a game of mostly probability, and very little possibility. If a team knew they could throw the long pass every play successfully they would. But that’s just not realistic. You don’t win games by playing the low stat plays. You win by playing the short gain high percentage plays. Chip away at the other team with your strengths while exploiting their weaknesses. Romney is a means to get us turned around. He is not the touchdown. We’re not going to get to a Ron Paul or Gary Johnson by letting the other side continue to score. The ’08 election, for the Ron Paul types, was about sitting out, letting Obama win in hopes it would teach Americans a lesson that they don’t really want socialism. That’s like the Skins defense letting the Bengals score to piss off the Skins offense into scoring. It might piss off the offense, but in the mean time the Bengals continue to score.

The few people who are willing to write in someone like Gary Johnson or Ron Paul is so small that it will not send any real message across the nation that some fundamental change is in the air. We have to get their name on the ballot with a resounding and meaningful voice. Otherwise, voting for Johnson at this point is nothing more than singing in an echo chamber. You might like hearing your own voice, but no one else is hearing it and it has really served no purpose.

I know you want to say “But it’s because of the people like PsyOps that we keep going down this road”. I will do everything I can to get real conservatives out there, but I refuse to participate in such a campaign at the expense of having the other team continues to rack up points while our liberties exponentially keep getting eroded.

Don’t think that I’m not with you. I just have a different means to the end than you do.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

Socialism, fascism, communism are fundamentally under the same ideology: collectivism. Which is the belief that the state is master of the people and that indvidual freedom can and will be sacrifed for the "greater good" at the will of the sate. Both Romney and Obama fall under collectivism, arguing over which form of collectivism is better, is falling fool to the false left vs right paradigm.

Fascism: is a religion of the State, it assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. it is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. it takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, wither by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives. any rival identity is part of the "problem" and therefore defined as the enemy.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

You do not understand political ideology. My view is not "right wing". My message is anti-big govermnet and power to the people. That is not a right wing philosophy. Its FREEDOM and its what founded this country. You fall victim to the modern false left vs right paradigm.

so you are for no government ?

 

[EmptyTimCup]

And Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the civil war...

Umm Wow ...........


so because Lincoln did it , that makes NDDA right ?

 

[EmptyTimCup]

I don't know how I can make it more clear... there are HUGE differences between Obama and Romney.

No Not Really ...... black liberation theology yes ...

... big gov no ... in Mass, they do not elect conservatives, you are blinded by Ryans faux conservative stance ...... he also voted for TARP, other bailouts


conservatives to not hand hold business with bailouts ....... GM should have been left to FALL, along with the Wall St investment companies

 

[Larry Gude]

But elections work a lot like football games. It’s a game of mostly probability, and very little possibility. If a team knew they could throw the long pass every play successfully they would. But that’s just not realistic. You don’t win games by playing the low stat plays. You win by playing the short gain high percentage plays. Chip away at the other team with your strengths while exploiting their weaknesses. Romney is a means to get us turned around. .

It's yet another interesting analogy but, it is predicated on ONE very key point; that Romney is, in fact, a step in the right direction. You think he is. I think he is, very obviously, the status quo with a R face. I hope to be wrong, way wrong. However, there is still your fundamental argument that, using Bush again because that was the last, and very recent, time when the R's actually had the power to do pretty much what they wished, we all simply made excuses for him, the wars, the D's, the msm, all of that. It starts to become a larger and larger leap of faith to hope that Mitt is actually going to move the ball in the right direction.

I read an interesting idea over the weekend. It was the two schools of thought about Vietnam; what went wrong. Basically, it boiled down, much like, exactly like, Bush's presidency; one school of thought was Yale Professor John Gaddis's observation about the war that history provides us with no clear path to avoid folly (#### happens) and George Santayana's observation that those that do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. #### happens because we forget what did and didn't work in the past and why.

Vietnam didn't just happen. The Bush decisions didn't just happen. If they did, who cares? Nothing matters because it's all out of our hands anyway. If we lost Vietnam because we screwed up, then, we need to learn, re-learn, those lessons and stop doing what we know won't work. Same for Bush.

So, now, Romney. You see a step in the right direction. I see the headlines already; "The media, the Dems, the (insert event here)___________ got in the way."

Another great line is from Lincoln; Paraphrasing, "If I lose the election (fall of 1864 to McClellen) then I propose to do all I can to help the president elect save the union before his inauguration (in those days, March) because he will have won the election on grounds that he can not possibly save it afterwards."

So, now, Romney. What are the major problems he faces and what grounds does he propose to fix them?

The wars? He isn't going to get us out. At least I don't
Wall Street? Status quo.
Immigration? Same thing
Spending? More deficits
Entitlements?
Housing?
Student loans?


You're football analogy is a good one. The difference we, you and I, see is that you see that we have plenty of time and can grind it out, 3 yards and a cloud of dust, move the chains.

I see Mitt as running a draw on 4th and 20 late in the fourth quarter and down 21. We might go in the right direction but, it's not nearly enough. To me, we don't have time for small steps. We just don't.

 

[JoeRider]

Very well then. You've convinced me to vote for Obama.

You are voting for him anyways, so why pretend.

Here is the liberals logic

Romney is an Obama lite, so why vote for him?
Vote for Johnson because he is the true conservative.

Such short sightedness is a classic liberal failure. The heart is bleeding but I am not crying.