The Jesus Puzzle

[Pete]

I misspoke. I meant that the Jews were in mostly non-Jewish communities. My point was that the harassment is more transcendentally offensive and hurtful when it includes the doctrine of eternal damnation. Many atheists use terms like "stupid" and "ignorant" when talking about religious people, and while I strongly condemn that kind of rudeness, that doesn't even come close to wanting to see someone else burn forever in hell.

I am no expert but if they "want" to see someone burning in hell I would not classify them as fundamental Christians or even good Christians. Either way people need to get thicker skin. When I am criticized I look at the source, if I respect that person I examine their criticism, sometimes I accept it, sometimes I don't, if I don't respect them I dismiss it immediately.

Unsolicited rhetoric is rude to begin with, but why would a devout Hebrew even care what a Christian claims is going to happen to them anyway?

 

[Toxick]

I misspoke. I meant that the Jews were in mostly non-Jewish communities. My point was that the harassment is more transcendentally offensive and hurtful when it includes the doctrine of eternal damnation. Many atheists use terms like "stupid" and "ignorant" when talking about religious people, and while I strongly condemn that kind of rudeness, that doesn't even come close to wanting to see someone else burn forever in hell.

Nobody who is a Christian (a real Christian, not someone simply offering lip service) wants to see anyone burn in hell.

Hatred and harrassment were not amongst the teachings of Rebbe Yeshua.




And furthermore, whether someone's headed for hell or not, it's not my business, and I'm not one to say if someone is going or not. It's between them and God. Jesus also warned against judging others.


Matthew 7:1-5 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.



I am fortunate enough to see the log in my own eye. So I have my own soul to worry about, much less me pointing my finger at others.

I've never seriously told someone they were going to hell.




Although I've been known to use it as a humorous prod from time to time.

 

[Tonio]

I am no expert but if they "want" to see someone burning in hell I would not classify them as fundamental Christians or even good Christians. Either way people need to get thicker skin.

To be fair, many of the fundamentalists seem to have an honest concern for others' afterlife destinations. You have a point about thicker skin. An individual has the right to refuse to be defined by what others say about him or her.

 

[Bustem' Down]

I have been called many names, it really doesn't bother me. :shrug:

What's funny is they tell me I'm going to hell like I should be scared. It's hard to be scared of something you don't think exists. Kind of like when I tell people that Xenu is going to come eat thier souls.

 

[Tonio]

And furthermore, whether someone's headed for hell or not, it's not my business, and I'm not one to say if someone is going or not. It's between them and God.

Toxic, I appreciate your sentiment. I would argue that it's not "between them and God" because it treats God's existence as fact. I'm trying to take a religion-neutral stance where competing religions' claims about the supernatural are treated as claims, not as facts. Even among religions that presuppose a single deity, it's possible that they're not all talking about the same deity.

What's funny is they tell me I'm going to hell like I should be scared. It's hard to be scared of something you don't think exists.

I've often said that the problem with the hell doctrine is what it means to the believer, not what it means to the unbeliever.

 

[Dondi]

I confess that I have shared the Gospel with others, even mentioning the aforementioned hell. But I never told anyone straight out that they are going there. Christians are to be messengers, not judges. However, we do feel responsible in warning others of that possibility.

One caveat, it matters not that one sins if there isn't a relationship with God. Sin is merely the disobedience to God's Laws. If one is adamant about not believing in God or even if he does and has no desire in a relationship with God, then it makes no sense to implore them to stop sinning, except for any civil law considerations, for they have already made up their mind. The Gospel ought to be good news about how to get out of a sinful lifestyle through a relationship with God, via His Holy Spirit, through the Cross of Christ.

 

[Toxick]

Toxic, I appreciate your sentiment. I would argue that it's not "between them and God" because it treats God's existence as fact.

Well, the point in question was that of accusing people of going to Hell. Since this behavior is (justifiably) attributed primarily to Christians, I was responding from the point of view of a Christian - one for whom the existence of God is a given.

 

[Tonio]

I don't understand why anyone's beliefs about the supernatural or the afterlife have to apply to other people. Why couldn't someone who believes in a god have beliefs only about what that god wants from that person? How can people claim to know what their god or gods want from others?

 

[Bustem' Down]

I don't understand why anyone's beliefs about the supernatural or the afterlife have to apply to other people. Why couldn't someone who believes in a god have beliefs only about what that god wants from that person? How can people claim to know what their god or gods want from others?

Dogma?

 

[Tonio]

Well, the point in question was that of accusing people of going to Hell. Since this behavior is (justifiably) attributed primarily to Christians, I was responding from the point of view of a Christian - one for whom the existence of God is a given.

I don't know enough about the non-Abrahamic religions to know if any of them have the equivalent of hell. My limited understanding of Hinduism is that people are reborn higher or lower in the caste system (extending down to animals) depending on how they live their previous lives.

I suppose the concept of hell might be a little more understandable if the lake of fire was reserved for, say, murderers. My objection is to the idea of hell for simply not holding a certain religious belief.

 

[Toxick]

I don't understand why anyone's beliefs about the supernatural or the afterlife have to apply to other people.

Typically, people follow the belief in what they think is correct. I.e. THE TRVTH. I can't think of a single person who subscribes to a religion they think is wrong, false or otherwise invalid.

If someone believes that they are correct, then it stands to reason they believe that others are wrong... by definition.

I know that it sounds all nice and fuzzy and politically correct for people to say, "Your beliefs are as valid to you as mine are to me, so let's all sing Kumbaya, while koala bears and kittens crap rainbows."

But the simple fact of the matter is - if I truly believe that I am right, then I must believe that you are wrong (unless you believe as I do).

It's simple arithmetic.

 

[Tonio]

But the simple fact of the matter is - if I truly believe that I am right, then I must believe that you are wrong (unless you believe as I do).

I go the opposite way - I suggest there is no such thing as absolute truth in religion, at least regarding claims about the supernatural or the afterlife. (I suppose one can make a logical argument for certain truths about strictly human existence.)

More practically, as long as someone's religious beliefs don't cause them to act in ways that hurt others, those beliefs should not be my concern. I have the right to object if someone has a religious belief about me, but that doesn't change who I am. Other than that, why should someone get worked up because someone else has a different belief about the supernatural? It sounds like a waste of time for, say, a Buddhist to fret over Christians and think, "Oh, I can't stand it that they're being wrong and not converting."

 

[Pete]

I am picturing Fonzi on a Harley, rocketing up a ramp over a shark tank.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I don't understand why anyone's beliefs about the supernatural or the afterlife have to apply to other people. Why couldn't someone who believes in a god have beliefs only about what that god wants from that person? How can people claim to know what their god or gods want from others?

Because of this:

Matthew 28:18-20

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

To not do so would be disobeying a direct command from Jesus. If you don't want to believe or don't want to listen, don't, but don't expect Christians to stop proclaiming; to do so would be denying our faith.

 

[Tonio]

but don't expect Christians to stop proclaiming; to do so would be denying our faith.

I'm trying to deconstruct the faiths and doctrines of all religions, because I don't understand why some teach evangelism and some don't. I'm trying to pop the hood and take a look at the engine. It has little to do with Christianity specifically.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm trying to deconstruct the faiths and doctrines of all religions, because I don't understand why some teach evangelism and some don't. I'm trying to pop the hood and take a look at the engine. It has little to do with Christianity specifically.

That's fine, but Christianity specifically addresses the proclaiming and making of disciples, so a Christian witnessing is just doing what is expected.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I go the opposite way - I suggest there is no such thing as absolute truth in religion, at least regarding claims about the supernatural or the afterlife.
Other than that, why should someone get worked up because someone else has a different belief about the supernatural? It sounds like a waste of time..."

First I'd like to answer the original question about the Jesus puzzle and say that I DO disagree with most of what I read. It would take too long to go into all the details but, if you want to know all about Jesus, read the 4 gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke & John and the rest of the new testament if you want more info.

Now, about this quote, if there is no absolute truth about something, then you cannot make ANY statement about it. But, since there is overwhelming proof that ONLY Jesus lived, died, then lived again, we can say that Christianity is the only truth and that the God of the Bible is the real One. For those who won't accept this, your "beef" is with God, not me. Believe what you want but I'm telling you that the Bible is not on trial, we are. Some try hard to prove that it is incorrect but no one can. It proves itself by actual historical facts and eyewitnesses throughout history. Since the Bible is truly from the ONLY God there is, where does that leave all the other "books"? I don't just assume that the Bible is correct, I can prove it through historical documents, science and through the creation. Every other "bible or holy book" clearly has internal contradictions. People say that the Bible does too but this is because God hasn't opened their eyes to the truth. He won't until they have asked Jesus to come into their lives and save them. It's bad enough to have so many false teachings out there to mislead people, but what's worse, is the millions who blindly follow them! Tonio, I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and there really is a Hell, that's "why I get worked up because someone else has a different belief about the supernatural".

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
Now, about this quote, if there is no absolute truth about something, then you cannot make ANY statement about it. But, since there is overwhelming proof that ONLY Jesus lived, died, then lived again, we can say that Christianity is the only truth and that the God of the Bible is the real One. For those who won't accept this, your "beef" is with God, not me. Believe what you want but I'm telling you that the Bible is not on trial, we are. Some try hard to prove that it is incorrect but no one can. It proves itself by actual historical facts and eyewitnesses throughout history. Since the Bible is truly from the ONLY God there is, where does that leave all the other "books"? I don't just assume that the Bible is correct, I can prove it through historical documents, science and through the creation. Every other "bible or holy book" clearly has internal contradictions. People say that the Bible does too but this is because God hasn't opened their eyes to the truth. He won't until they have asked Jesus to come into their lives and save them. It's bad enough to have so many false teachings out there to mislead people, but what's worse, is the millions who blindly follow them! Tonio, I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and there really is a Hell, that's "why I get worked up because someone else has a different belief about the supernatural".

Go you!

Totally Christian

 

[Bustem' Down]

I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and there really is a Hell, that's "why I get worked up because someone else has a different belief about the supernatural".

Well, let's just get it out of the way. I don't believe and don't want to be converted. Now that that's covered, we can be friends.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Because of this:
To not do so would be disobeying a direct command from Jesus. If you don't want to believe or don't want to listen, don't, but don't expect Christians to stop proclaiming; to do so would be denying our faith.

Out of context.

Matthew 28:16-19
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and Earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost

It was a command to the Eleven remaining disciples to teach to the nations, which they did until thier martyrdom or disappearance.