The Jesus Puzzle

[2ndAmendment]

Out of context.


It was a command to the Eleven remaining disciples to teach to the nations, which they did until thier martyrdom or disappearance.

Nope. Since all scripture is fit for the teaching, admonishment, and instruction.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be
thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16,17

 

[Bustem' Down]

Nope. Since all scripture is fit for the teaching, admonishment, and instruction.

Considering that at the time That the words of Timothy were being spoken, the New Testement did not exist, he could only be refering to the Old Testement and not to the Book of Matthew.

 

[Midnightrider]

Now, about this quote, if there is no absolute truth about something, then you cannot make ANY statement about it. But, since there is overwhelming proof that ONLY Jesus lived, died, then lived again, we can say that Christianity is the only truth and that the God of the Bible is the real One. For those who won't accept this, your "beef" is with God, not me. Believe what you want but I'm telling you that the Bible is not on trial, we are. Some try hard to prove that it is incorrect but no one can. It proves itself by actual historical facts and eyewitnesses throughout history.

The problem with that statement is that those are not facts, they are things that are taken on Faith. I have no problem with faith, but it shouldn't be confused with proof or facts.

Since the Bible is truly from the ONLY God there is, where does that leave all the other "books"? I don't just assume that the Bible is correct, I can prove it through historical documents, science and through the creation. Every other "bible or holy book" clearly has internal contradictions. People say that the Bible does too but this is because God hasn't opened their eyes to the truth. He won't until they have asked Jesus to come into their lives and save them. It's bad enough to have so many false teachings out there to mislead people, but what's worse, is the millions who blindly follow them! Tonio, I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and there really is a Hell, that's "why I get worked up because someone else has a different belief about the supernatural".[/COLOR]

A couple of things here:
The other books also refrence many of the events in the bible. I believe there are several independant religions that incorperate the story of the flood, the virgin birth, rebirth etc. So manu may be verified in much the same manner.

How can turning a blind eye to the contradictions be seen as having your "eyes opened"? I would think that the contradictions would only prove out that the numerous writers of the bible had slightly differnent opinions and beliefs- you know the way people do, and that wouldn't necessarily reflect poorly on the validity of the major tenents of the religion. These were all people writing about something that is generally agreed upon humans cannot fully understand.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Considering that at the time That the words of Timothy were being spoken, the New Testement did not exist, he could only be refering to the Old Testement and not to the Book of Matthew.

We disagree.

 

[Midnightrider]

We disagree.

about when the words were spoken, or if they apply to later works in the NT?

 

[Bustem' Down]

We disagree.

That's fine. There would be much of a conversation otherwise.

 

[ItalianScallion]

The problem with that statement is that those are not facts, they are things that are taken on Faith. I have no problem with faith, but it shouldn't be confused with proof or facts.

Rider, what "are not facts"? Historical documents, archaeological findings, written evidence & all creation scream out THERE IS A GOD! I'm not talking about faith here, I'm talking about the same facts that prove George Washington lived. None of us were there to see him but we believe by intelligent (factual) info from "credible" people. There is a certain amount of "faith" that we must have but it is intelligent faith not a blind one.

How can turning a blind eye to the contradictions be seen as having your "eyes opened"? I would think that the contradictions would only prove out that the numerous writers of the bible had slightly differnent opinions and beliefs- you know the way people do, and that wouldn't necessarily reflect poorly on the validity of the major tenents of the religion. These were all people writing about something that is generally agreed upon humans cannot fully understand.

UNBELIEVABLE! Who is turning a blind eye to anything my friend? I agree that, if 2 people see the same event, they will report on it from slightly different perspectives and that is what happens in the Bible. What's truly amazing is the fact that @39 authors, living in different places & times, came up with the same underlying story about a relationship with God. Next, God will allow ANYONE to read the Bible and understand a lot of it but there are MANY things that only "saved" people will be allowed to understand.(1 Corinthians 4v1) & (2 Corinthians 3v14,15). And there are many things that NO ONE will understand. That's how God works. I also want to say that these "contradictions" in the Bible are not contradictions. They are a result of how the Bible was written. There are metaphors, hyperboles and euphamisms in it. God has to allow us to understand them by opening our eyes & minds to what is really being said. Since Resurrection Sunday is coming, I'll explain one "apparent contradiction" that I often hear. Were there one or 2 angels or men at the tomb of Christ? Matthew says one angel, (Mark & Luke say what Peter & Paul told them because Mark & Luke weren't there) and John says 2 men. What gives? Simply stated, there was one for a while then another later. Angels have no physical presence just as God doesn't so, when they take on human form, they still have a glow (glory) around them. Matthew describes what he saw as to their glory (angels) and John as to their human form (men). This is why we have 4 Gospels. While there is much the same info in all 4 of them, there are somethings in each of them that are not in the other 3. Sorry for the sermon.

 

[Penn]

Rider, what "are not facts"? Historical documents, archaeological findings, written evidence & all creation scream out THERE IS A GOD! I'm not talking about faith here, I'm talking about the same facts that prove George Washington lived. None of us were there to see him but we believe by intelligent (factual) info from "credible" people. There is a certain amount of "faith" that we must have but it is intelligent faith not a blind one.



UNBELIEVABLE! Who is turning a blind eye to anything my friend? I agree that, if 2 people see the same event, they will report on it from slightly different perspectives and that is what happens in the Bible. What's truly amazing is the fact that @39 authors, living in different places & times, came up with the same underlying story about a relationship with God. Next, God will allow ANYONE to read the Bible and understand a lot of it, but there are MANY things that only "saved" people will be allowed to understand.(1 Corinthians 4v1) & (2 Corinthians 3v14,15). And there are many things that NO ONE will understand. That's how God works. I also want to say that these "contradictions" in the Bible are not contradictions. They are a result of how the Bible was written. There are metaphors, hyperboles and euphamisms in it. God has to allow us to understand them by opening our eyes & minds to what is really being said. Since Resurrection Sunday is coming, I'll explain one "apparent contradiction" that I often hear. Were there one or 2 angels or men at the tomb of Christ? Matthew says one angel, (Mark & Luke say what Peter & Paul told them because Mark & Luke weren't there) and John says 2 men. What gives? Simply stated, there was one for a while then another later. Angels have no physical presence just as God doesn't so, when they take on human form, they still have a glow (glory) around them. Matthew describes what he saw as to their glory (angels) and John as to their human form (men). This is why we have 4 Gospels. While there is much the same info in all 4 of them, there are somethings in each of them that are not in the other 3. Sorry for the sermon.

Awesome! We talked about these things just a few months ago, where only "saved" people, people who have asked God to come into their hearts and minds and souls, to help them walk in a different light, have been able to understand scripture a bit more clearly.

Secondly, an author - J. Vernon McGee - said the same thing when reviewing the 21st chapter of the Gospel of John.

In his series "Through the Bible", Vol. IV, when he said(I paraphrase): "My friends, there are a lot of things you will not know about the Bible; there are many things that are not your business to know. The important thing you should know - is to follow Him."

 

[Midnightrider]

Rider, what "are not facts"? Historical documents, archaeological findings, written evidence & all creation scream out THERE IS A GOD! I'm not talking about faith here, I'm talking about the same facts that prove George Washington lived. None of us were there to see him but we believe by intelligent (factual) info from "credible" people. There is a certain amount of "faith" that we must have but it is intelligent faith not a blind one.

see you are clearly confusing faith with facts. Having complete faith in something does not make it a fact. It makes it a belief.

UNBELIEVABLE! Who is turning a blind eye to anything my friend? I agree that, if 2 people see the same event, they will report on it from slightly different perspectives and that is what happens in the Bible. What's truly amazing is the fact that @39 authors, living in different places & times, came up with the same underlying story about a relationship with God. Next, God will allow ANYONE to read the Bible and understand a lot of it but there are MANY things that only "saved" people will be allowed to understand.(1 Corinthians 4v1) & (2 Corinthians 3v14,15). And there are many things that NO ONE will understand. That's how God works. I also want to say that these "contradictions" in the Bible are not contradictions. They are a result of how the Bible was written. There are metaphors, hyperboles and euphamisms in it. God has to allow us to understand them by opening our eyes & minds to what is really being said. Since Resurrection Sunday is coming, I'll explain one "apparent contradiction" that I often hear. Were there one or 2 angels or men at the tomb of Christ? Matthew says one angel, (Mark & Luke say what Peter & Paul told them because Mark & Luke weren't there) and John says 2 men. What gives? Simply stated, there was one for a while then another later. Angels have no physical presence just as God doesn't so, when they take on human form, they still have a glow (glory) around them. Matthew describes what he saw as to their glory (angels) and John as to their human form (men). This is why we have 4 Gospels. While there is much the same info in all 4 of them, there are somethings in each of them that are not in the other 3. Sorry for the sermon.

We are saying the same thing here, people wrote the bible, their experiences influenced how they percieved the events and later told or wrote about them. They do contain contradictions, but my point is that these dont disprove anything, but only show that we as men cannot fully understand.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I tried!

 

[Tonio]

there are many things that are not your business to know.

Unless he was talking about other people's personal lives, McGee was being rude and arrogant, in my view.

 

[Penn]

Unless he was talking about other people's personal lives, McGee was being rude and arrogant, in my view.

Actually, in this particular context, J. Vernon McGee was giving his perspective on the instance of Peter's walk with Jesus, along the shore of the Sea of Galilee, right after a meeting with him and a few other Disciples, where they shared one of their final meals with Him, which is described in the final verses of that chapter.

Jesus had just reaffirmed Peter back into the fold of the group(Disciples) after asking him the same 3 questions: "Do you love me more than these?" Most probably, because Peter had denied Jesus 3 times before, in the night prior to His Crucifixion.

Then Jesus told Peter how he would die(as a martyr) for Jesus's cause(he would be hanged upside down.)

One might think Peter would have been pondering these thoughts in his mind as Jesus led him along the shoreline, walking along with Him. Instead, as the scripture explains, Peter notes a figure who is following them a short distance behind them,(it is the Disciple, John). So, Peter asks Jesus, "What about him?"

Jesus replies, "If I choose to let him live, until I return, what is that to you?"

Jesus adds: "You follow me."

This is where Mr. McGee got those thoughts from. If Jesus had plans for another Disciple's future, that did not, or should not have concerned Peter. His concern should have been with his Lord - Jesus Christ.

Mr. McGee took this thought one more step further, which I agreed with: There are many who do not understand much of what is said in the Bible, and as such, it creates many questions they cannot get answers to. Many give up on it; call it a work of fiction, a work of man(meaning it is fallible), and therefore move away from it, casting it aside.

One more thought I associated with these: If you saw the move "Bruce Almighty", where the Lord is is going to transfer His powers to Bruce for one week, while He goes away on vacation.(A very funny movie, but with some very thoughtful overtones) Just as God is leaving, walking away from Bruce over a watery expanse, Bruce asks Him a nagging question:

"If you've given people the power of Free Will, how do you get them to love You?"

The Lord God replies: "NOW you see my problem."

 

[Tonio]

This is where Mr. McGee got those thoughts from. If Jesus had plans for another Disciple's future, that did not, or should not have concerned Peter. His concern should have been with his Lord - Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the clarification. What you offered sounds more logical and understandable, and it partly fits in with my point about the importance of personal boundaries. But I disagree with the notions of total obedience and absolute authority, especially when the only evidence for the existence of the authority figure is someone else's word for it. If I had grown up on a desert island or some other type of remote community, and not been exposed to any religious ideas, the idea of an almighty supernatural being wouldn't even have occured to me.

 

[ItalianScallion]

...especially when the only evidence for the existence of the authority figure is someone else's word for it. If I had grown up on a desert island or some other type of remote community, and not been exposed to any religious ideas, the idea of an almighty supernatural being wouldn't even have occured to me.

May I disagree highly with the above statement Tonio? Even on a desert island God can still reach you. He speaks to your mind and His creation proves His existence also. He has spoken to you already so that, on judgement day, you won't be able to say you never heard of Him. I'm not judging you in any way but in (Romans 1v 18-20) God says that men have NO excuse for not believing in Him, because the creation shows His divine attributes and His power. No one has to take someone else's word for God, He speaks loud enough for all to hear.

 

[Penn]

Thanks for the clarification. What you offered sounds more logical and understandable, and it partly fits in with my point about the importance of personal boundaries. But I disagree with the notions of total obedience and absolute authority, especially when the only evidence for the existence of the authority figure is someone else's word for it. If I had grown up on a desert island or some other type of remote community, and not been exposed to any religious ideas, the idea of an almighty supernatural being wouldn't even have occured to me.

You're welcome.

I can see your point, or your disagreement concerning absolute authority and obedience, with precious little to back it up; however - have you ever been on a beautiful island(Hawaii comes to mind), took in the beauty of it all, the color of the sky, the ocean, the palm trees, the roar of the waves as they come crushing onto the shore - and wondered how all this wonderment came into being?

Did it all just happen magically? A bunch of atoms, filled with protons and neutrons and ions just happily found their way together, (who knows how?)and eventually formed all that beauty?

Or, was there more to it than just chance? Suppose it is entirely possible that our Creator made these things for us, our enjoyment, for our livelihood? Why else would all that beauty be out there?

And yes, I actually did stand there on the north shore of Hawaii, listening, seeing, and taking in all that, back in the middle 80s. I thought to myself, "Lord, you sure do know how to paint a masterful picture." JMHO

 

[Tonio]

however - have you ever been on a beautiful island(Hawaii comes to mind), took in the beauty of it all, the color of the sky, the ocean, the palm trees, the roar of the waves as they come crushing onto the shore - and wondered how all this wonderment came into being...

Why else would all that beauty be out there?

Yes, I have been to places like that. One doesn't have to presuppose the existence of a supreme being to deeply appreciate such wonders or even to explain such wonders. In my view, whether such wonders were created by an intelligence or came into being naturally is not important. What is important is our appreciation for such wonders. They don't have to have an explicit reason for existing.

Even if one believes in supernatural life because of nature's wonder and beauty, why would it automatically prove the existence of the Judeo-Christian God and not some other religion's supernatural being or beings? The point I've been making for a while here is that all religions' claims about the supernatural are on an equal footing, since we can't test any of those claims scientifically. Imagine if Stevie Wonder's hands were tied down and different people told him they were holding objects in front of him. Since he can't verify those claims himself by touch, there is no reason he should believe any of the claims, or more to the point, give one claim more credibility than the others.

It's not my business if someone believes in a supreme being or beings and leaves it at that. But it is my business when the person uses that belief to make claims about people, such as original sin and eternal damnation. What if the world's religions rejected supernaturalism completely and embraced a completely naturalistic view of the world? Naturalism doesn't inherently or explicitly attempt to assign different worths to different people. Some often interpret naturalism as making a judgment about humanity, but that is their choice to interpret it that way.

I would like to see a metaphorical wall between the natural and supernatural as far as religions are concerned. Either the various religions would give up any claims about the supernatural, focusing strictly on ethical values and purposes for life, or they would focus completely on the supernatural and cease offering spiritual guidance. If the religions were really interested in helping people spiritually, they would not have doctrines such as hell.