The ordeal of Omaha Beach

[cwo_ghwebb]

Professor David Gelernter of Yale University is a man of formidable learning with little patience for phonies. He has detected a tidal wave of phoniness in the celebration of “the greatest generation,” as he wrote in his 2004 Wall Street Journal column “Too much, too late.”

As a remedy for the phoniness he detected, Professor Gelernter prescribed the teaching to our children the major battles of the war, the bestiality of the Japanese, the attitude of the intellectuals, and the memoirs and recollections of the veterans. Complying with Professor Gelernter’s prescription, I am currently reading the late Dartmouth English Professor Harold Bond’s moving Return to Cassino.

Professor Gelernter failed to assign a paper topic for the course he has prescribed. I would assign an essay on the subject of sacrifice. Do we deserve the sacrifice made on our behalf? What we can do to become worthy of it? Is the disparity between those who sacrifice and those who reap the benefit too great to bridge?

The battle of Omaha Beach that occurred sixty-nine years ago today of course represents only a small part of Operation Overlord and the other battles that occurred on the Normandy beaches. But the story of Omaha Beach is deserving of special recognition.

The ordeal of Omaha Beach | Power Line

I am proud to call an Army glider veteran who participated in the assault on Normandy a friend. He'll be 90 in three days. He's the last man of his original unit still alive. All his friends are gone. God Bless you Bill Rutherford!

It was hell. Are we worthy of the sacrifices these men made?

 

[Larry Gude]

It was hell. Are we worthy of the sacrifices these men made?

Depends on what 'worthy' means.

Is peace the measure? The level of current conflict? The likelihood and severity of future conflict?

The condition of the general population? Our prosperity? Lifestyle? Health?

The health and condition of freedom and liberty?

Or, do we look at Japan and it's sphere now vs. 1941? Were they worse for the Chinese than Mao became and his legacy? What would Japanese domination of the region look like today vs. what we have?

What about Germany? Was Hitler worse than Stalin? What would Western Europe look like today had Hitler not been stopped compared to what it is?

Communism dominates what would have been the Japanese Empire absent our sacrifices. Is that better than Imperial Japan?

Islam is well on it's way to dominating Western Europe.
Is that better than Germanic dominance?

I mean, we can't lay geo politics at the feet of some drafted grunt from an Iowa cornfield or the streets of Brooklyn in 1942 but, this is what they wrought. This is what their sacrifices bought.

Heck, what would America look like had 400,000 of our bravest and strongest not been killed saving other people's sh1t countries? Add in the millions of cripples.

What would America look like today had we not gone off to fight WWII? Or, just fought the Japanese and not the Germans?


It's really a good, actually a great question. Are we worthy? Of what?

 

[ZARA]

It was hell. Are we worthy of the sacrifices these men made?

No we are not and the current state of affairs proves we are not.

But this is the greatest thing about Hero's, they don't do it because a people are worthy, they do it because it is something that must be done.

 

[Larry Gude]

No we are not and the current state of affairs proves we are not.

But this is the greatest thing about Hero's, they don't do it because a people are worthy, they do it because it is something that must be done.

I did some tactical training with a 20 year Spec forces guy over the weekend. He's got some been there done that behind him. During casual conversation during a break, someone in the group mentioned hero's, all soldiers are hero's, hero this, hero that.

He suffered us a quote to digest;

Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy.

F. Scott Fitzgerald

 

[acommondisaster]

My daughter was born on the anniversary of D-Day. My dad was a medic in England during WWII and treated soldiers involved in D-day. He rarely spoke about it, but when we kids asked him if he ever had to touch dead people (we were young) he told us he didn't mind touching them when they died, but he didn't like to touch them when they'd gone stiff. He talked about treating men with fevers from infections so high they had to pack them in ice. After the war was over, he was taken up in one of the bombers to see the damage from the war - he sat in that little window area where the bombers sat. He never flew again.
I was in Portsmouth, England for the 50th anniversary of DDay - big commemoration going on, of course - queen and her yacht was there, aerial displays, fly-overs, lots of army paraphenalia. A flotilla left Portsmouth for Normandy and it was an amazing sight, to think of what had happened 50 years prior. Funny thing about that generation, not many really talk about what happened. For the most part, the fields of displays and memorabilia were observed quietly by people, almost with reverence.
Found out after we bought the house we live in now, that the man we bought it from was one of the chief navy meteorologists who helped with the DDay forecast.
All these things make me feel connected. I don't wonder if I "deserve" or if we are "worthy" of their sacrifice. I don't know that it's my choice - what my father's generation bestowed on us, was their doing. They gave us the freedom to screw it up however we wanted to.

 

[aps45819]

Bedford VA had the highest per capita casualty rate of any place in the country and is the home of the national D-Day memorial,
Awesome place to visit

 

[Larry Gude]

I don't wonder if I "deserve" or if we are "worthy" of their sacrifice. I don't know that it's my choice - what my father's generation bestowed on us, was their doing. They gave us the freedom to screw it up however we wanted to.

And that's the question; what did they bestow on us???

George Washington's generation bestowed us with freedom.

Abraham Lincoln's said it was for ALL men.

Susan B. Anthony, of that time, said that that wasn't enough.

None of these people felt that the purpose of the United States of America had anything to do with the rest of the world past being an example of what WE thought life should be like.

None of them would have ever endorsed our entanglements starting with Wilson.

I would argue that the Greatest Generation screwed things up their own way. That's why I ask what 'worthy' means. Was Stalin better for the world than Hitler? Mao better than Tojo? Was all that worth 400,000 American dead and millions crippled? Is that what America was supposed to be, supposed to do? Did they create more problems than they solved? Is that what they bestowed upon us?

Is it a body count question? A question of global freedom?
Of business? Money? WWII was not won by free men. It could only be won with men who were forced to go fight it.

So, what, really, were they fighting for given they were not fighting of their own free will?

 

[Foxhound]

And that's the question; what did they bestow on us???

George Washington's generation bestowed us with freedom.

Abraham Lincoln's said it was for ALL men.

Susan B. Anthony, of that time, said that that wasn't enough.

None of these people felt that the purpose of the United States of America had anything to do with the rest of the world past being an example of what WE thought life should be like.

None of them would have ever endorsed our entanglements starting with Wilson.

I would argue that the Greatest Generation screwed things up their own way. That's why I ask what 'worthy' means. Was Stalin better for the world than Hitler? Mao better than Tojo? Was all that worth 400,000 American dead and millions crippled? Is that what America was supposed to be, supposed to do? Did they create more problems than they solved? Is that what they bestowed upon us?

Is it a body count question? A question of global freedom?
Of business? Money? WWII was not won by free men. It could only be won with men who were forced to go fight it.

So, what, really, were they fighting for given they were not fighting of their own free will?

Larry,

I submit that had we not gotten involved in WWII when we did we would have been involved later when it would have been too late for us to do anything about it. With the post war knowledge we gained, many war historians argue that Germany was on the verge of many technological advances, and would have become unstoppable. ( Many technologies that USA furthered after the war that may have made us the power we became. )

I also would like to say that 1/3rd volunteered to go to war, even if it was due to an extensive propaganda campaign. No, I would not cheapen the sacrifices made by any of the men during WWII, volunteer or draftee. I know many people who are forced into situations, but don't do the right thing in those situations. The fact is forced or not, most did what needed to be done, when the time came and they didn't have to.

I had the distinct pleasure of working at Riderwood retirement community in Silver Spring. Meeting a large number of WWII vets and hearing some of their stories. One who told me afterwards he had not spoken to anyone of it since the war. It gives me goosebumps now. I have no idea why I was chosen for the privilege to here this mans account. I only know I consider it a gift that cannot be matched.

These are people of a civic mind. These are people who believe there is a time to sacrifice for the greater good. These are people, who mostly volunteered, to go to a situation where the odds of survival were not good and they knew it.

I get no sense what so ever that they may have screwed up. The world under the domination of Hitler and the Japanese would have been a very different place indeed. Not one I would like to think about.

As far as the question of if we deserve the sacrifices made. The soldiers sacrifices were made in the name of freedom, (regardless of what the Gov reasons were), as long as we continue to exercise that freedom the we are doing well. If we ignore the atrocities of the world and do nothing to at least try to resolve them. If we live on our knees. Then maybe we don't deserve what they did for us. However, if we strive to make our nation and our world a better place for the generations after us, then we maybe we are living up to what many suffered and died for.

For those who question calling them the Greatest Generation, well I guess they just haven't met any of them, or possibly they have an inflated sense of self

 

[Larry Gude]

Larry,

I submit that had we not gotten involved in WWII when we did we would have been involved later when it would have been too late for us to do anything about it. With the post war knowledge we gained, many war historians argue that Germany was on the verge of many technological advances, and would have become unstoppable.

And I ask again, Hitler or Stalin?

Hitler has the bad rap of going after specific people. I get that. Evil.

Stalin killed more of his own people, by far, but, he's not so bad, at least not Hitler bad, because he didn't discriminate. Not evil? Just indifferent?

Right?

I mean, take it to the next step. What would have a German dominated Europe looked like from 1945 to 1989 v. a USSR dominated one? If you are France and England, it sure would sucked but, what about Poland and the Baltic states and the Czechs and the Balkans?

Point being, we play our own superiority game while excoriating them for playing theirs, right?

 

[Larry Gude]

I also would like to say that 1/3rd volunteered to go to war, even if it was due to an extensive propaganda campaign. No, I would not cheapen the sacrifices made by any of the men during WWII, volunteer or draftee. I know many people who are forced into situations, but don't do the right thing in those situations. The fact is forced or not, most did what needed to be done, when the time came and they didn't have to. f

I do not mean to, or try to, cheapen their sacrifice even a little bit. Asking 'what if' does not cheapen it.

The question is 'are we worthy' and I am asking 'of what?'.
Are we talking body count? Money? Liberty?

It is fair and correct to say the world would be very different today had we not got involved in WWII. That said, how would it be different and would it be worse? Or better?

How? Why? 400,000 Americans died and millions more were crippled. What did they buy? And who was it for? As I have said before, their kids ran a little wild in the 60's and it wasn't because the American solider wanted them to be good little soldiers and follow orders.

 

[Larry Gude]

For those who question calling them the Greatest Generation, well I guess they just haven't met any of them, or possibly they have an inflated sense of self

My grandfather flew 19 missions over Japan and, without hesitation, thinks nuking them was well worth it. That we needed to beat them, Japan. After all, they started it. He has been a life long Republican straight out of central casting. Pro business. Pro military. His views the last decade have become pro Obamacare and a few others I won't mention.

His wife, my grandmother, one of the millions who had their life put on hold and spent every day raising kids and wondering if their man was ever coming home, is certainly pro America but, I have found that the biggest flag wavers usually tend to be folks who were not paying the price, day by day, like they both did, of possibly losing everything for someone elses problems a world away.

And, again, it is pure non sense to say they fought for freedom when the Soviet Union was waiting to take over so much post war. We certainly didn't know how things might play out in China but, there was no illusions about Stalin and company.

To me, this is all worth considering because it matters today the steps we take because of the impact our choices will have in 50-60 years. We're losing to Islam because of our failures today. In a lot of ways, the sense of global interventionism, that we 'have to do it' is very much the root antagonism between us and something a good bit hardier than Nazi-ism and Stalin-ism.

 

[Larry Gude]

For those who question calling them the Greatest Generation, well I guess they just haven't met any of them, or possibly they have an inflated sense of self

In my case, I have a much more humble view of self and who we ought to be.

 

[cwo_ghwebb]

I do not mean to, or try to, cheapen their sacrifice even a little bit. Asking 'what if' does not cheapen it. I agree.

The question is 'are we worthy' and I am asking 'of what?'.
Are we talking body count? Money? Liberty? I would say liberty, the opportunity to freely screw things up or make a better society.

It is fair and correct to say the world would be very different today had we not got involved in WWII. That said, how would it be different and would it be worse? Or better? What are your thoughts on the matter? I believe the world would be worse. Give folks from all countries to have a voice in whatever government they want. I think Europe is far better off now than if the Nazi's had control. Certain forms of government are better for their citizens than others. One just has to look at E & W Germany after the war.

How? Why? 400,000 Americans died and millions more were crippled. What did they buy? And who was it for? As I have said before, their kids ran a little wild in the 60's and it wasn't because the American solider wanted them to be good little soldiers and follow orders. Japan declared war on us on December 7, 1941 and Germany and the Axis powers declared war on us on December 11-13, 1941. What should we as a country done? Hide behind the Atlantic and Pacific and hope Germany & Japan wouldn't develop the weaponry and means to attack us on our home soil? Our military sacrifices were horrendous but most felt it necessary. The Soviet Union lost 8,800,000 dead or missing (not including the wounded). I'm sure their military felt it was necessary to defend their homeland.

I missed Mr. Rutherford yesterday. I don't think he came out of the house. I'll talk to him Sunday to get his input and I'll post what he thinks.

 

[aps45819]

What would have a German dominated Europe looked like from 1945 to 1989 v. a USSR dominated one? If you are France and England, it sure would sucked but, what about Poland and the Baltic states and the Czechs and the Balkans?

Why do you think that if we hadn't stopped Hitler in Europe he would have stayed in Europe?

They had the first jet fighter planes and were developing nukes. If the U.S. hadn't destroyed his manufacturing base there is no reason to think they wouldn't have come here.
Germans on the east coast and Japanese on the west

 

[Larry Gude]

I missed Mr. Rutherford yesterday. I don't think he came out of the house. I'll talk to him Sunday to get his input and I'll post what he thinks.

What are your thoughts on the matter? I believe the world would be worse. Give folks from all countries to have a voice in whatever government they want. I think Europe is far better off now than if the Nazi's had control. Certain forms of government are better for their citizens than others. One just has to look at E & W Germany after the war.

Ah, yes but, you just made my point; E Germany went from Democracy pre Hitler to communism post Hitler. Is that better?

No doubt, Hitler was an evil but, he is an evil that intervention, ours in WWI, created. Had we let England and France and Germany stew in their own mess, they would have been forced to come to terms that were peaceable and fair and recognize that all parties made this mess. As it was, Germany bore the brunt and created all the conditions necessary for Hitler to rise.

So, part of my argument goes back to how we got in the mess in the first place; the concept that Europe and her ongoing self created woes were any, ANY of our business in the first place. Absent the US entry into WWI, World War II does not happen.

That, I am pretty confident of.

So, intervention itself is a good place to start.

 

[aps45819]

Ah, yes but, you just made my point; E Germany went from Democracy pre Hitler to communism post Hitler. Is that better?

Germany wasn't a democracy while Hitler was in power.


... unless you call some guy with a club watching you vote and beating you if you vote for the wrong guy a democracy

 

[Larry Gude]

Germany wasn't a democracy while Hitler was in power.

Yup. Which is why I noted;

E Germany went from Democracy pre Hitler to communism post Hitler. Is that better?

The issue is Hitler. How to avoid that. We created him. Because we're busy bodies.

 

[Foxhound]

I do not mean to, or try to, cheapen their sacrifice even a little bit. Asking 'what if' does not cheapen it.

The question is 'are we worthy' and I am asking 'of what?'.
Are we talking body count? Money? Liberty?

It is fair and correct to say the world would be very different today had we not got involved in WWII. That said, how would it be different and would it be worse? Or better?

How? Why? 400,000 Americans died and millions more were crippled. What did they buy? And who was it for? As I have said before, their kids ran a little wild in the 60's and it wasn't because the American solider wanted them to be good little soldiers and follow orders.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, however I took your saying WWII was not won by free men, but forced to mean, they had no choice and not of worth. Therefore not need us to be worthy of anything. As for what do we need to be worthy of, well, we don't NEED to be, but are we. Again I say if we as a whole would rather sit back and not lift a finger to assist those being oppressed, or just watch as atrocities such as genocide, occur, then no, we are not worthy of the freedom gained at such a dear price.

As for the state of the world, I would propose that none of the nations oppressed by the USSR would have been any better off than under the Nazi regime. So yes, even if marginal we gained. We were struggling against a known enemy (the Nazis), with only an inkling of what was to become the USSR. Perhaps we should have let Patton drive the Russians back into Russia once the Nazis were defeated. That however is hindsight. There was no way of knowing how the world was to reform after the War. But we did have a good idea where it was heading had we not gotten involved.

What was gained. Freedom for most of Europe. Freedom for Jews, Russians, Poles, Gypsies, and any of the people who opposed the grand design of Hitler. The end of an oppressive war machine set on European if not world domination. And we gained the freedom for their children to run wild in the sixties.

I have never once looked at the history of WWII and said why did we get involved. Only why didn't we get involved sooner. Why did the nation allow itself to be fooled for the time it did that what was happening was nothing to be concerned about.

I feel this whole thread is asking if we should honor those that died in WWII for what they did. This is why I bothered to post here. In my thinking WWII was a moral imperative. The actions of those there be they considered Heroic, or tragedies, should be honored. Would the same number of people go willingly or not to the same situation. I don't think so. The sheer numbers that did go, attests to the greatness of the generation.

Are they the greatest, I don't know The ones I have met, I felt I was in the presence of honorable people.

 

[cwo_ghwebb]

Yup. Which is why I noted;



The issue is Hitler. How to avoid that. We created him. Because we're busy bodies.

Larry, just how did we create Hitler?

WWII is a bit more complex than what can be covered here. Japan and Germany were allies. Japan attacked the U.S. and we declared war on Japan. Germany honored her commitment to Japan and declared war on the U.S.

What choice did we have? Sit and home and wait for them to come to us?

 

[Hessian]

May I bud in?

Larry: I quote:"...but, there was no illusions about Stalin and company. "

ah, but there was. FDR REFUSED to confront the reports & recommendations from intel officers. He was handed a report on the Katyn massacre and he still called it a Nazi ploy,...sent the guy who produced it----to Samoa. (Truman brought him back).

We had a few bomber crews detained by Stalin--some had to escape through Iran.

FDR simply could not think that Uncle Joe was bad news.

carry on...