The ordeal of Omaha Beach

[Hessian]

We were,...complicit.

Larry, just how did we create Hitler?

WWII is a bit more complex than what can be covered here. Japan and Germany were allies. Japan attacked the U.S. and we declared war on Japan. Germany honored her commitment to Japan and declared war on the U.S.

What choice did we have? Sit and home and wait for them to come to us?

Wilson's failure to restrain the others of the "Big 4" in their quest for revenge allowed the burdensome reparations & total de-militarism of Germany. France felt bold enough to seize the Rhineland & force the Germans to work for them. When we attempted to "prime the pump" of the German economy with loans in the mid 1920's...it was literally handed over to the allies-thus NO economic growth.

As Hitler rose within the National Socialist movement, he railed against Versailles, against occupation, against colonial powers. I do NOT recall anything specifically against the US, perhaps some snide remarks regarding Wilson's legacy.

SO--we contributed to conditions, that Nazis were able to exploit.
Larry, help me out,...what was Patrick Buchanan's book on the topic?

 

[Hessian]

Oh,...just to be fair: lets weigh what our POTUS has to say about D-Day:

Obama Fails to Commemorate D-Day - Katie Pavlich

that's right...for YEARS he has said nothing.

 

[itsbob]

The ordeal of Omaha Beach | Power Line

I am proud to call an Army glider veteran who participated in the assault on Normandy a friend. He'll be 90 in three days. He's the last man of his original unit still alive. All his friends are gone. God Bless you Bill Rutherford!

It was hell. Are we worthy of the sacrifices these men made?

We had a Substitute at our High School who was a Glider Pilot Raigh Mason.

Broke his back on landing due to an "armored" jeep that made his glider overweight. He was captured and rode to the POW camp in a motorcylce sidecare, before getting any care for his injuries.

EVERYONE that met him loved and respected him, as he was respectful to everyone he met, student or faculty. He really loved being on campus and dealing wtih students every day, and his love for everyone was apparent.

Sadly he's passed, but his memory lives on at Pinkerton Academy with the Raigh Mason Memorial Scholarship.

 

[b23hqb]

Bedford VA had the highest per capita casualty rate of any place in the country and is the home of the national D-Day memorial,
Awesome place to visit

Just by happenstance, I started re-reading the Bedford Boys booklast weekend, not even thinking about June 6th. What devastation that town and surrounding farming communities suffered from such a high loss of local boys, nearly all of them members of the local National Guard unit Co A 116th Infantry Regiment, that was merged in with the rest of the 29th Div.

And of course, Co A was sent right into the teeth of hell in the Dog Green section of Omaha, the most heavily defended sector of all the invasion beaches.

Many of the survivors thought until their deaths that they were placed in that position because "they were expendable" because they had no combat experience, while other Africa/Sicily experienced combat units (1st Div) were placed in later assault waves or less defended sectors of the beach.

What absolute guts and sacrifice by all the men on D-Day and the ensuing month of hellacious hedgerow fighting.

 

[Bavarian]

Wilson's failure to restrain the others of the "Big 4" in their quest for revenge allowed the burdensome reparations & total de-militarism of Germany. France felt bold enough to seize the Rhineland & force the Germans to work for them. When we attempted to "prime the pump" of the German economy with loans in the mid 1920's...it was literally handed over to the allies-thus NO economic growth.

As Hitler rose within the National Socialist movement, he railed against Versailles, against occupation, against colonial powers. I do NOT recall anything specifically against the US, perhaps some snide remarks regarding Wilson's legacy.

SO--we contributed to conditions, that Nazis were able to exploit.
Larry, help me out,...what was Patrick Buchanan's book on the topic?

"Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War".
Another good book, if you can find it is "Other Losses" by Bacque, detailed the mistreatment of German POWs and citizens after the war. Matched the stories my father told me of his mistreatment after the War, he had been in the German Navy and was at the radar station at Normandy, saw the blips but higher ups in Berlin said not to shoot.

 

[aps45819]

Just by happenstance, I started re-reading the Bedford Boys booklast weekend, not even thinking about June 6th. What devastation that town and surrounding farming communities suffered from such a high loss of local boys, nearly all of them members of the local National Guard unit Co A 116th Infantry Regiment, that was merged in with the rest of the 29th Div.

My mother was from Bedford and her brother (Uncle Earl) was in the 116 and survived till after the war.

 

[Larry Gude]

Why do you think that if we hadn't stopped Hitler in Europe he would have stayed in Europe?

They had the first jet fighter planes and were developing nukes. If the U.S. hadn't destroyed his manufacturing base there is no reason to think they wouldn't have come here.
Germans on the east coast and Japanese on the west

Hitler was a loon. I am not predicting anything he would have done. He made brilliant strategic moves and insanely stupid ones.

What I am saying, what I am asking, in reference to the 'worthy' comment, it is worth considering what would have happened absent our yet again entanglement in foreign affairs. Was a USSR dominated Europe really better than one dominated by Germany?

There is enormous reason to think they wouldn't come here; logistics. Good lord, they didn't think it was feasible to invade England from 20 miles away using France as the base of operations. It is pure fantasy ANY threat to mainland US.

Add to that that Germany's weapons development wasn't happening in a vacuum where no one else was even close. Jet technology, pre war, was further advanced in England. We, the US, were already working on the bomb starting in 1939.

 

[Larry Gude]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, however I took your saying WWII was not won by free men, but forced to mean, they had no choice and not of worth. Therefore not need us to be worthy of anything. As for what do we need to be worthy of, well, we don't NEED to be, but are we. Again I say if we as a whole would rather sit back and not lift a finger to assist those being oppressed, or just watch as atrocities such as genocide, occur, then no, we are not worthy of the freedom gained at such a dear price. .

Fine words but, where do you draw the line? Rwanda? Georgia? Korea? Vietnam? Venezuela?

The US was never about Empire. It wasn't intended to be. We had the perfect little set up. Happy with the size of the US. happy with Mexico on one border and Canada on the other. Whatever ill happens in the world, and ill will happen in the world, it was not the intent of the US to dominate others, not the need in any way and for damn sure not the will of the people.

 

[Larry Gude]

Perhaps we should have let Patton drive the Russians back into Russia once the Nazis were defeated. .

At the cost of how many more American boys? For what?

 

[Larry Gude]

I feel this whole thread is asking if we should honor those that died in WWII for what they did. This is why I bothered to post here. In my thinking WWII was a moral imperative. The actions of those there be they considered Heroic, or tragedies, should be honored. Would the same number of people go willingly or not to the same situation. I don't think so. The sheer numbers that did go, attests to the greatness of the generation.

Are they the greatest, I don't know The ones I have met, I felt I was in the presence of honorable people.

Agreed but, that was not the question.

The question is;

Are we worthy of the sacrifices these men made?

I have a friend who is Canadian but has been here for over 20 years. He is furious with the state of America today. The welfare state, the taxes, regulations, the failures of the wars. He hates, literally, Obama. I did my usual uncomfortable pointing out of how Bush did the same things, did them worst and handed the nation to Obama and he gets all that. He still thinks America is the greatest country in the world and is totally into that world policeman thing, that we HAVE to do it.

I asked him what he thought things would be like today had we not invaded A'stan and Iraq and then I asked him what he thought things would be like had we simply won those wars. In both cases, obviously, we'd be better off so, in fact, our foreign intervention is at root cause of our down fall because A, we'd be better off had we minded our own business and B, wars, winning, what you win, the outcome, is problematic. We had NO business losing.

But, we did. And look at us.


Thus the founders admonitions; be wary. They didn't set this place up for France or Russia or, for damn sure, England.

 

[Larry Gude]

Larry: I quote:"...but, there was no illusions about Stalin and company. "

ah, but there was. FDR REFUSED to confront the reports & recommendations from intel officers. He was handed a report on the Katyn massacre and he still called it a Nazi ploy,...sent the guy who produced it----to Samoa. (Truman brought him back).

We had a few bomber crews detained by Stalin--some had to escape through Iran.

FDR simply could not think that Uncle Joe was bad news.

carry on...

Yeah, and willful ignorance is no excuse, so, we had no illusions about what post war USSR would be about.

Any number of staff people in the War Department, at State, would have readily had the answers for the president were he to ask 'what are we dealing with here?"

Pre war Russia sucked. Post war Russia was gonna suck. With lots of proven weapons and men. And the spoils of war.

 

[Bavarian]

Roosevelt wanted the US in the WWII, it was his way to end his Depression. He schemed with Churchill on how to do it. He egged on Japan to attack by holding back oil. Churchill then through his minions got Hitler to declare war on US. The reason given for the European War was to protect the land of Poland. After the war, East Poland was given to the Soviets and East Germany given to Poland. A great win for Eastern Europe.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Fine words but, where do you draw the line? Rwanda? Georgia? Korea? Vietnam? Venezuela?

The US was never about Empire.

It depends on what you define empire as and from what starting point you wish to begin. I remember some small conflicts that could be considered scale-able with the time. Start with the French-Indian war, the Spanish-American War, Texas.....

 

[BOP]

Bedford VA had the highest per capita casualty rate of any place in the country and is the home of the national D-Day memorial,
Awesome place to visit

Surprised that the libs haven't screeched about the public display of guns.

 

[GURPS]

So, part of my argument goes back to how we got in the mess in the first place; the concept that Europe and her ongoing self created woes were any, ANY of our business in the first place. Absent the US entry into WWI, World War II does not happen.

War Mongering Bankers ...... wishing to may 'War Loans' to Gov.

 

[Larry Gude]

War Mongering Bankers ...... wishing to may 'War Loans' to Gov.

War mongering elites would be more inclusive.

There is a wonderful book, the long way home,

The Long Way Home: An American Journey from Ellis Island to the Great War: David Laskin: Amazon.com: Books

...and it details how, IIRC, 20 some odd people got here from the late 1800's to the early 1900's, where they left, why they left, and the incredible, special insanity of having the gumption to leave all you ever knew, because it sucks, go to the land of opportunity, build a brand new life and then get sent to go, in some cases, fight against the very place you left or, even worse, if you were Irish, to go fight FOR your enemy, England!

Most of us grew up with that wonderful, innocent, naive us against them thing. The America all good, everyone else either a dear friend or mortal enemy. The simplest, easiest way to cut through all that bull####, all our own propaganda is simply imagine being one of the ones who didn't come back. Then, think about their family.

Imagine leaving Ireland because of the ills of England and then having to go fight and die for them. Having come to the land of the free and the home of the brave and be forced to go die for your enemy.

We are a great idea with some really awful behaviors.

 

[Larry Gude]

It depends on what you define empire as and from what starting point you wish to begin. I remember some small conflicts that could be considered scale-able with the time. Start with the French-Indian war, the Spanish-American War, Texas.....

Pick one. Any of them. It all boils down to serving the national interest. There is an argument to be made that WWII did NOT serve the national interests of the United States.

 

[Larry Gude]

Roosevelt wanted the US in the WWII, it was his way to end his Depression. He schemed with Churchill on how to do it. He egged on Japan to attack by holding back oil. Churchill then through his minions got Hitler to declare war on US. The reason given for the European War was to protect the land of Poland. After the war, East Poland was given to the Soviets and East Germany given to Poland. A great win for Eastern Europe.

That and we can't forget his strong roots and ties to England.