The Origin Of Christmas

[This_person]

PS:
T_P...would you say that the Virgin Mary had the authority to get an abortion, considering she didn't even choose to engage in sex?

If you read my posts in the abortion thread and understood them, you'd see I've answered my view on this question.

 

[ItalianScallion]

What did I miss?
That there are several other things that have similar stories? I got that. I don't care, but I got that.
Did you know that other little girls fell in love besides Juliette, and that those little girls' families and the families of the little boys they fell in love with didn't get along? Just because the Bard wrote it down in one story doesn't mean it wasn't true in another. Just because there are similar stories of other religious figures doesn't imply that the Christ wasn't the Christ. Just because other religions have histories on or around Dec 25th doesn't imply that Jesus was never born. Christmas is not a "made up" holiday. The date was chosen, probably to get most people involved, not because of the historical accuracy of the date. I seriously doubt Dec 25 was the day that Jesus was born. However, I don't know, so I celebrate it then, per convention.
Imagine adopting a child whose birthdate was unknown. If you chose a date to celebrate it (maybe the date of adoption), would that make the celebration of the child's "birthday" less special for not knowing the day? Would it imply that the child had no birthdate simply because you didn't know what it was?
Or, in other words, I fully understood and rejected what WxTornado was suggesting, and I was sarcastically (you could tell by the waving off his pointless (in my estimation) comparisons.
But, I guess that went over your head.

Well stated, as usual. Here's what they ALL missed:
"They (false teachers) will secretly introduced destructive heresies...
MANY will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up". (2 Peter 2v1-3)
"....Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light". (2 Corinthians 11 v 14).

So you others folks keep on believing those counterfit stories. Only Jesus proved that He was who He claimed to be.
One day SOON, we'll see whose "God" is the real one. You'd be wise not to get this wrong.

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Well stated, as usual. Here's what they ALL missed:
"They (false teachers) will secretly introduced destructive heresies...
MANY will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up". (2 Peter 2v1-3)
"....Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light". (2 Corinthians 11 v 14).

So you others folks keep on believing those counterfit stories. Only Jesus proved that He was who He claimed to be.
One day SOON, we'll see whose "God" is the real one. You'd be wise not to get this wrong.

 

[ItalianScallion]

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Not sure the validity of it, but I'd also heard that the evergreen thing started because the pagans would hollow one out, and burn a virgin inside.
I may have gotten some of that story wrong, too

 

[wxtornado]

Well stated, as usual. Here's what they ALL missed:
"They (false teachers) will secretly introduced destructive heresies...
MANY will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up". (2 Peter 2v1-3)
"....Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light". (2 Corinthians 11 v 14).

So you others folks keep on believing those counterfit stories. Only Jesus proved that He was who He claimed to be.
One day SOON, we'll see whose "God" is the real one. You'd be wise not to get this wrong.

Yes, but what the bible says to me is not important whatsoever. Quoting the bible to me is like me quoting Bulfinche's Mythology to you. Are you going to believe that Prometheus is chained to a rock and an eagle eats out his regenerating liver every day as punishment for bringing fire to mankind?

I doubt it. And when previous mythologies claim "If you do not believe in this story, you are a fool" -- does that mean they are truthful assertions? The bible is meaningless to me as a perspective of actual truth. A book of poetry? Yes. A fascinating document of the history of man's belief in a world he cannot easily comprehend? Absolutely. But "the divine word of God"? No, I have read it and it doesn't support any conclusion that a God exists.

 

[This_person]

Your not doing yourself a favor if your equating the Bible and Christian beliefs with Shakespeare

But continue

Touche

 

[ItalianScallion]

Christmas Tree decorating is not a German institution, and it has NOTHING to do with Christian beliefs or symbology.
You are actually told NOT to emulate it

Sorry, you're wrong on that. That passage has nothing to do with Christmas trees but wooden idols made from trees. You and the Jehovah's Witnesses really missed that one. No surprise though.

While Saint Nicholas may have a part, Odin who has a Yule celebration, also influences who/what Sanat Claus is (read about Odins horse Sleipnir and let us know if you dont think it sounds like Santa's reindeer). The practice of hanging stockings on a fireplace is derived from feeding Odins 8 legged horse.

Recheck you sources, they're incorrect.

English Puritans condemned a number of customs associated with Christmas, Oliver Cromwell preached against "the heathen traditions" of Christmas carols, decorated trees and any joyful expression that desecrated "that sacred event."
Some of the songs may talk about Christ, but acceptance of the todays Christmas practices are a new event, in the past it was condemned.

Who cares what those fools think? Singing Christmas carols about Jesus are never wrong just because someone thinks it is.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Yes, but what the bible says to me is not important whatsoever. Quoting the bible to me is like me quoting Bulfinche's Mythology to you. Are you going to believe that Prometheus is chained to a rock and an eagle eats out his regenerating liver every day as punishment for bringing fire to mankind?

I doubt it. And when previous mythologies claim "If you do not believe in this story, you are a fool" -- does that mean they are truthful assertions? The bible is meaningless to me as a perspective of actual truth. A book of poetry? Yes. A fascinating document of the history of man's belief in a world he cannot easily comprehend? Absolutely. But "the divine word of God"? No, I have read it and it doesn't support any conclusion that a God exists.

I understand that the Bible isn't important to you but I quoted it for whomever it might be.
And, as we've said before, without faith and an open mind you'll never understand the "hidden" meanings in it. So you can say: "you've read it and it doesn't support any conclusion that a God exists" but you are not correct.

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Sorry, you're wrong on that. That passage has nothing to do with Christmas trees but wooden idols made from trees. You and the Jehovah's Witnesses really missed that one. No surprise though.

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

Christmas tree decorating originated in Germany with the practice of decorating a "Paradise" tree with apples symbolizing the tree of life in the Garden of Eden.
Along with that, was a triangular shaped wooden shelf filled with small figurines and topped with a star shaped figure representing the star that the "wise men" followed. The tree & the shelf were later combined to form the tree with a star on top & the decorations on it. Later, candles were used as lights for the trees.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

From your comments I thought you already had some? Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

From your comments I thought you already had some? Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

Good deflection

 

[wxtornado]

And, as we've said before, without faith and an open mind you'll never understand the "hidden" meanings in it.

This is the blueprint for the salvation of mankind, why are there "hidden" meanings? Why isn't it more clear?

You'd think God, as all powerful as he is, would be able to think up some foolproof ways. Instead, it appears as if he does exactly the opposite.

He could have revealed a trove of NT writings appear on a building that were clearly chiseled in during the period of time. You know, like the false god Amon-Ra did with the pyramids - direct and uninterrupted pedigree from the author's hands to our eyes today.

But.... nah, God didn't do that. He kept it "oral" since, as we all know, the oral method is impossible to circumvent or corrupt.

He could have allowed to survive records from Rome. After all, he did apprently let less important documents from the time survive fine.

But nah... he didn't do that either. He left it open to disagreement because after all - he merely wants people to believe so they don't wind up being damned forever.

Hey, he's God - he could have the words enblazoned in the sky for all to see - in every language - simultaneously.

But then... nah.... he'd rather have a few thousand reinterpretations filtered through a few million people over time, and allow the bible to change time and time and time again.

He could "wipe out" all competitive "sacred texts" as they were being written - you know, as "And they all bombed one another happily ever after" was written at the end of the Qu'ran, it could combust and disappear. Only the Bible could survive.

But nah - he doesn't do that either.

And of course, he could have made it so it said things that made sense. Like it could have accurately described how creation occured and the story could adhere to the verifiable evidence.

But nah, he doesn't do that EITHER! (I love the excuse for this one: People back then wouldn't understand the scientific complexity of evolution, so God chose a simpler way - as if all the other stuff in the Bible - global floods, plagues of locusts, parting seas, talking mules, the sun standing still in the sky - are somehow more understandable than "creatures change with each generation and species evolve". Hell, those shepherds were completely aware of such things - which is how they domesticated and bred better flocks. These were people in a time that were sophisticated enough to build the pyramids around atronomical blueprints as well - but somehow they're too primitive to understand a simplified version of evolution?? Riiiight.)


In the end, what God apparently does do is behave EXACTLY as if he didn't exist in the first place - which of course is no surprise.

He leaves gaps, he allows translations, he doesn't cross reference with other works, and he lets it sit there about as useful as a doorstop.

Which is why not everyone buys it as a book about truth.

 

[This_person]

This is the blueprint for the salvation of mankind, why are there "hidden" meanings? Why isn't it more clear?

You'd think God, as all powerful as he is, would be able to think up some foolproof ways. Instead, it appears as if he does exactly the opposite.

He could have revealed a trove of NT writings appear on a building that were clearly chiseled in during the period of time. You know, like the false god Amon-Ra did with the pyramids - direct and uninterrupted pedigree from the author's hands to our eyes today.

But.... nah, God didn't do that. He kept it "oral" since, as we all know, the oral method is impossible to circumvent or corrupt.

He could have allowed to survive records from Rome. After all, he did apprently let less important documents from the time survive fine.

But nah... he didn't do that either. He left it open to disagreement because after all - he merely wants people to believe so they don't wind up being damned forever.

Hey, he's God - he could have the words enblazoned in the sky for all to see - in every language - simultaneously.

But then... nah.... he'd rather have a few thousand reinterpretations filtered through a few million people over time, and allow the bible to change time and time and time again.

He could "wipe out" all competitive "sacred texts" as they were being written - you know, as "And they all bombed one another happily ever after" was written at the end of the Qu'ran, it could combust and disappear. Only the Bible could survive.

But nah - he doesn't do that either.

And of course, he could have made it so it said things that made sense. Like it could have accurately described how creation occured and the story could adhere to the verifiable evidence.

But nah, he doesn't do that EITHER! (I love the excuse for this one: People back then wouldn't understand the scientific complexity of evolution, so God chose a simpler way - as if all the other stuff in the Bible - global floods, plagues of locusts, parting seas, talking mules, the sun standing still in the sky - are somehow more understandable than "creatures change with each generation and species evolve". Hell, those shepherds were completely aware of such things - which is how they domesticated and bred better flocks. These were people in a time that were sophisticated enough to build the pyramids around atronomical blueprints as well - but somehow they're too primitive to understand a simplified version of evolution?? Riiiight.)


In the end, what God apparently does do is behave EXACTLY as if he didn't exist in the first place - which of course is no surprise.

He leaves gaps, he allows translations, he doesn't cross reference with other works, and he lets it sit there about as useful as a doorstop.

Which is why not everyone buys it as a book about truth.

Maybe He knew people had free will, so some would be #######s, and He didn't want them in Heaven with Him?

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Maybe He knew people had free will, so some would be #######s, and He didn't want them in Heaven with Him?

What happened to everyone having a fair chance?
This guy sounds like Hitler

 

[wxtornado]

Maybe He knew people had free will, so some would be #######s, and He didn't want them in Heaven with Him?

Do you even see the word you started your sentence with?

So why does God make things so vague and complicated? Why is it a litany of "maybe, maybe, maybe"? Why not a striaghtforward approach, with solid corrboration and at least enough evidence to make a thoughtful decision? Certainly this can't be outside of God's ability to accomplish, can it? A fair amount of convergant evidence that Jesus lived, there were apostles, a few bona fide documents still extant... instead... Nothing.

Well, not quite nothing. We do have lots of documents from that era. We have the Dead Sea Scrolls. So we know it's possible that God could allow such things to come to us down throught the ages.

It's just that - when concerned with his Most Supreme Desire - our salvation! - there's nothing but chirping crickets.

 

[This_person]

What happened to everyone having a fair chance?
This guy sounds like Hitler

Everyone does have a fair chance.

Note, I said FREE WILL. If you're an #######, that's kind of your choice.

 

[This_person]

Do you even see the word you started your sentence with?

So why does God make things so vague and complicated? Why is it a litany of "maybe, maybe, maybe"? Why not a striaghtforward approach, with solid corrboration and at least enough evidence to make a thoughtful decision? Certainly this can't be outside of God's ability to accomplish, can it? A fair amount of convergant evidence that Jesus lived, there were apostles, a few bona fide documents still extant... instead... Nothing.

Well, not quite nothing. We do have lots of documents from that era. We have the Dead Sea Scrolls. So we know it's possible that God could allow such things to come to us down throught the ages.

It's just that - when concerned with his Most Supreme Desire - our salvation! - there's nothing but chirping crickets.

Why so vague and complicated? I was obviously trying to make a joke before, but... in all seriousness, it has to be a choice to accept, or there would be no point in needing faith. If everything were as clear, there would be little option, and no "salvation"

 

[ItalianScallion]

This is the blueprint for the salvation of mankind, why are there "hidden" meanings? Why isn't it more clear?

But.... nah, God didn't do that. He kept it "oral" since, as we all know, the oral method is impossible to circumvent or corrupt.

But nah... he didn't do that either. He left it open to disagreement because after all - he merely wants people to believe so they don't wind up being damned forever.

He leaves gaps, he allows translations, he doesn't cross reference with other works, and he lets it sit there about as useful as a doorstop.

Which is why not everyone buys it as a book about truth.

Hidden meanings are for there because of folks like you who refuse to believe them so you make fun and slander them. His words are holy and it is a serious sin to speak against them. They're very clear to me and many other "saved" folks.
Oral traditions are more flawed than written ones.
ANY document can be "open to disagreement" my friend. You know that.
If there weren't "gaps", the Bible would be bigger than most apartment complexes.
What they "buy it as" has no effect on it's truth content.

What happened to everyone having a fair chance?
This guy sounds like Hitler

Everyone has a fair chance. You're being given yours everytime I or someone else quotes Scriptures to you.

Maybe you should recheck your sources?
King James version

There's your 2 main problems. The KJV suffers from the most primitive of translation efforts and therefore has errors in it (although it has some of God's truth in it).
And, second, nothing that you quoted changes the verses meaning because of the context of the passage. Son, WE DON'T DECORATE CHRISTMAS TREES TO WORSHIP THEM!!!

TTYS folks. I gotta work out, eat, then head to MBP. Rock on!

 

[PsyOps]

Most of them don't know the following either:

Horus c. 3000 BCE - born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

Attis of Phrygia c.1400 BCE - born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana (or sometimes Cybelem).

Krishna c. 1400 BCE (possibly as early as 5771 BCE) - born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.

Mithra of Persia c. 600 BCE - born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.

Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) c. 563 BCE - born on December 25 of the Virgin Maya (“the Queen of Heaven”).

Heracles c. 800 BCE - born on December 25 to a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her God-begotten child was born.

Dionysus c. 186 BCE - born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.

Tammuz c. 400 BCE - born to a virgin, named Mylitta, on December 25

Adonis c. 200 BCE - born on December 25 was son of the virgin Myrha. (Almost certainly based on Tammuz).

Hermes - born on December 25 was the son of the virgin Maia, member of a holy trinity Hermes Tris-Megistus.

Bacchus - born on December 25, was crucified in 200 BCE.

Prometheus - born on December 25, descended from heaven as a god incarnate as man, to save mankind, and was crucified, suffered, and was redeemed from death.

And all of those are so widely celebrated as the world's savior.

If you want to pick one of those to follow have at it. But it's a poor argument to counter the influence of the Christ Jesus. No other has influenced the world since His birth. But you'll throw any sort of crude argument as a means to discount the Christian belief. If these examples are such great influences in our world of religions then you will have to explain why it is most people don't even know who they are. You'll have to tell us why it is Jesus was chosen, out of all these other "saviors?", as the one Christ the world follows for their salvation?