The True Churh is the Catholic Church, of course.

[libby]

Begin.

Since I don't know if any particular issue or doctrine is of greater interest to you, I will begin with the Eucharist. It is the defining doctrine of the Catholic faith, it is Jesus Christ.
I'm not sure if you've been around for threads in which we've discussed the Biblical support for the Eucharist, but I'll provide that, too, if you need it. If this doctrine is of no interest to you then give me a topic you'd like to cover and I'll do my best.

Ignatius of Antioch



"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr



"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Cyprian of Carthage



"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem



"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

I believe I have said ad nauseum that my primary goal on this religion forum is to defend the Catholic Church against those who would say that our doctrines were "made up" at such and such a date, by so and so. I believe sincere and reasonable people can disagree about what Scriptures say, which brings me right on back to the authority I believe the Lord established.
Bringing the early church fathers into the discussion is meant to support that today's Catholic doctrines were taught in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and onward. Naturally, there were disagreements and heresies, and when there were, councils were held. However, I guess that is history for another day.
I asked Starman and IT earlier to provide me with writings to establish proof that there was an invisible church such as they think existed. Heros and martyrs for Bible only faith who stood up to the supposed heresies of the RCC. Letters to the flocks, etc. The early Christians had no Amazon.com to pick up their own Bible so they must've relied on holy teachers; there must be a paper trail somewhere.

 

[Starman3000m]

You spend so much time shooting off your anti-Catholic bias that you don't bother to stop and listen to what the church really teaches, and why. Very few of these have anything to do with doctrine, and therefore it's just a distraction.
Since I can't have anyone here thinking that I am avoiding a challenge, I will only answer questions that interest PsyOps, or someone else who wants to dialogue.

C'mon, libby, did you really even read the list at all?

The list I posted is not anti-Catholic bias at all libby! The list reflects the early teachings of the Roman Catholic Church which have become doctrinal tenets that the Vatican expects parishioners to abide by and respect.

In addition, the list was in response to someone asking earlier about the early teachings.

Just because I posted the truth about the RCC tenets, why is it that you claim it is my anti-Catholic bias??? It's what the Vatican abides by - and, yes, whatever any denomination includes as part of "belief system" that the congregants must agree with then becomes Church Doctrine.

You are taking the same approach as Nucklesack. Each time I expose the Truth about what Islam teaches in comparison to the Holy Bible, he calls me a bigot!

Sheeeshhhh!

 

[ItalianScallion]

I don't like denominations either, but unlike PsyOps I do believe that all are Christian and follow John 3:16 (Psy's required precept), and all make the Body of Christ.

Exactly. The Way---> called Christians---> called Catholic. They are one and the same. To claim differently is to disregard basic history.

You have soooooo much to learn about true Christians and this is why I harp on it so much. Not everyone who acknowledges Jesus is going to Heaven. This is why I and a few others are sooo emphatic about this topic.
When you say: "I do believe that all are Christians..." you are not right.
Many people acknowledge who Jesus is but they either don't do His will or they have Him in name only (a different Jesus). If ANY Jesus will do then we all have to lump the Mormons, JW's & Muslims in with Christianity.

"The Way---> called Christans---> called Catholic". Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad but no cigar...:shrug:
God would never say something to the Catholic church and then contradict it in the Bible. One has to be wrong and it ain't the Bible.

 

[Im_Me]

I feel like ...

We've beat the dog dead and then beat the dead dog...

Now I know why I stayed out of the religions forum so long.

Have blessed week-ends to all Christian and non-christian alike.

 

[itsbob]

Many people acknowledge who Jesus is but they either don't do His will or they have Him in name only (a different Jesus). If ANY Jesus will do then we all have to lump the Mormons, JW's & Muslims in with Christianity.

WOW, now you lump Mormons (Christians) JW (Christians) with Muslims to further your agenda??

SO much hate from such a little arrogant man..

 

[Starman3000m]

Many people acknowledge who Jesus is but they either don't do His will or they have Him in name only (a different Jesus). If ANY Jesus will do then we all have to lump the Mormons, JW's & Muslims in with Christianity.

WOW, now you lump Mormons (Christians) JW (Christians) with Muslims to further your agenda??

SO much hate from such a little arrogant man..

There ya go...just like Nucklesack, et all, who have not yet been able to comprehend that various religions who teach a different "Jesus" are not followers of the True Jesus of the Holy Bible! Just because they claim a "Jesus" in their theology does not make them a Christian sect even though they claim to be.

For example:

The Mormon "Jesus"- Is the spirit brother of Satan;
- Was married to many wives;
- Does not have the power of total forgiveness through His Atoning Blood


The Jehovah's Witness "Jesus"
- Is really the Archangel Michael and not the Divine Son of God;
- Is unable to grant complete Salvation through His Atoning Blood

These teachings are not supported by the Biblical account of the True Jesus, therefore, belief in the counterfeit Jesus of the Mormons and the counterfeit Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses does not make them "Christian" at all.
These are pseudo-Christian cults where people are following a false "Jesus" and not the True Jesus of the Bible.


Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

[libby]

Find Trinity in the Bible

Show me altar calls

Sola Scriptura cannot be found, either

Throw away your wedding rings, you pagan

Services on Sunday instead of Saturday

Show me which book of the Bible tells us which books belong in the Bible

How absurd of you to list "wax candles" as some sort of heresy against the Lord. You better throw out every light bulb in your church!

Priest dressing differently? Did it ever occur to you that the robes they wear are more like what everyone used to wear in Roman times, and that the manner of dress of the laypeople changed?
Of course not, that would require too much charity. You simply must condemn that which you obstinately choose to misrepresent.

 

[libby]

Find Trinity in the Bible

Show me altar calls

Sola Scriptura cannot be found, either

Throw away your wedding rings, you pagan

Services on Sunday instead of Saturday

Show me which book of the Bible tells us which books belong in the Bible

How absurd of you to list "wax candles" as some sort of heresy against the Lord. You better throw out every light bulb in your church!

Priest dressing differently? Did it ever occur to you that the robes they wear are more like what everyone used to wear in Roman times, and that the manner of dress of the laypeople changed?
Of course not, that would require too much charity. You simply must condemn that which you obstinately choose to misrepresent.

How could I have forgotten the demonic traditions of celebrating Christmas! Scriptures do not tell us we can do such a thing, and we don't really even know when Jesus was born. Shame on us. And Easter, Valentines Day, Halloween, birthdays! It goes on and on.

 

[Starman3000m]

Find Trinity in the Bible

Trinity is the descriptive word of one entity being comprised of three qualities. In the Godhead, it is Father, Son (also known as The Word) and The Holy Spirit:

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:6-7)

Show me altar calls

Jesus gave the first Altar Call: Calling people to go forth to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:27-29)

Sola Scriptura cannot be found, either

Sola Scriptura: All we need is the Holy Bible whose writing is comprised by the writings of the Prophets, Patriarchs of the Old Testament and the first-century Apostles of Jesus. There was no other message that needed to be added other than what had already been preached in the time of Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

Throw away your wedding rings, you pagan

Speaking of weddings:
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (1 Timothy 3:1-3)

If marriage was allowed in Christ's time, why are priests and nuns not allowed to marry?

Services on Sunday instead of Saturday

It happens. However, all days should be kept Holy unto God - not just Saturday or Sunday:

And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)


And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:15-17)

Show me which book of the Bible tells us which books belong in the Bible

The Holy Bible is comprised of writings that are confirmed to be written by those with first-hand experience and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Additional writings that may sound good but are determined not to be God-inspired and which introduce other tenets not spoken of by the original writers are not included:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21)

How absurd of you to list "wax candles" as some sort of heresy against the Lord. You better throw out every light bulb in your church!

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:7-9)

Priest dressing differently? Did it ever occur to you that the robes they wear are more like what everyone used to wear in Roman times, and that the manner of dress of the laypeople changed?
Of course not, that would require too much charity. You simply must condemn that which you obstinately choose to misrepresent.

Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation. (Luke 20:45-47)

 

[libby]

Trinity is the descriptive word of one entity being comprised of three qualities. In the Godhead, it is Father, Son (also known as The Word) and The Holy Spirit:

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:6-7)




Jesus gave the first Altar Call: Calling people to go forth to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:27-29)




Sola Scriptura: All we need is the Holy Bible whose writing is comprised by the writings of the Prophets, Patriarchs of the Old Testament and the first-century Apostles of Jesus. There was no other message that needed to be added other than what had already been preached in the time of Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)



Speaking of weddings:
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (1 Timothy 3:1-3)

If marriage was allowed in Christ's time, why are priests and nuns not allowed to marry?



It happens. However, all days should be kept Holy unto God - not just Saturday or Sunday:

And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)


And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:15-17)




The Holy Bible is comprised of writings that are confirmed to be written by those with first-hand experience and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Additional writings that may sound good but are determined not to be God-inspired and which introduce other tenets not spoken of by the original writers are not included:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21)




Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:7-9)




Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation. (Luke 20:45-47)

The things I listed are not in the Bible, period. By your definition they are anti-Biblical.
You cannot have it both ways.
What you have quoted is an erroneous interpretation.

 

[Starman3000m]

The things I listed are not in the Bible, period. By your definition they are anti-Biblical.
You cannot have it both ways.
What you have quoted is an erroneous interpretation.

OK. By your definition I would agree that the words: pope, Vatican, Roman Catholic, papal infallibility, Eucharist, purgatory, Mary-mother of God, indulgences, simony, rosary, believers are to say prayers directed to the dead, etc. are also not found in the Bible, therefore are "anti-biblical".

Whose erroneous interpretations are those?

At least I presented Bible scripture for the basis of terms that you listed for me to respond to. Now, could you please show me Bible scripture (not RCC doctrine) that comes even close to validating the list that I just presented and that was added at later times and incorporated into RCC doctrine?

 

[itsbob]

There ya go...just like Nucklesack, et all, who have not yet been able to comprehend that various religions who teach a different "Jesus" are not followers of the True Jesus of the Holy Bible! Just because they claim a "Jesus" in their theology does not make them a Christian sect even though they claim to be.

For example:

The Mormon "Jesus"- Is the spirit brother of Satan;
- Was married to many wives;
- Does not have the power of total forgiveness through His Atoning Blood


The Jehovah's Witness "Jesus"
- Is really the Archangel Michael and not the Divine Son of God;
- Is unable to grant complete Salvation through His Atoning Blood

These teachings are not supported by the Biblical account of the True Jesus, therefore, belief in the counterfeit Jesus of the Mormons and the counterfeit Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses does not make them "Christian" at all.
These are pseudo-Christian cults where people are following a false "Jesus" and not the True Jesus of the Bible.


Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23)

Any more lies you want to share about churches you don't agree with? Hard to say they don't pray to the Christian Jesus when they read and study the SAME bible you do.

The hate is strong in this one.. his training is almost complete..

 

[libby]

OK. By your definition I would agree that the words: pope, Vatican, Roman Catholic, papal infallibility, Eucharist, purgatory, Mary-mother of God, indulgences, simony, rosary, believers are to say prayers directed to the dead, etc. are also not found in the Bible, therefore are "anti-biblical".

Whose erroneous interpretations are those?

At least I presented Bible scripture for the basis of terms that you listed for me to respond to. Now, could you please show me Bible scripture (not RCC doctrine) that comes even close to validating the list that I just presented and that was added at later times and incorporated into RCC doctrine?

It's your paradigm that rejects anything that is not explicitly found in the Bible. I have, for every doctrine you and IT have said is "man made", provided Scripture, which you both ignore. I will go over them for anyone else here who wants an explanation, but I won't waste my effort again trying to come to an understanding with either of you. (notice I say understanding, not agreement)

 

[Radiant1]

You're right. It wasn't called Catholic until much later. That doesn't negate that it is one in the same.

However, if you don't believe the Catholic Church is The Way, what happened to The Way? Did the gates of hell prevail? Was Jesus a liar? Did it's members go underground until the Reformation?

Have you ever heard of the Didache (circa 1st c.)? Fascinating read. I encourage you to check it out.

Read the Book of Mormon and you will find your answer.. and it isn't the Catholic Church..

There was a restoration of Christ's church on this planet, and the Catholic Church in no way shape or form closely resembles it.

It's interesting to note that even LDS scholars cannot find the evidence to support the Book of Mormon that they desperately seek; however, it's not for lack of trying. I put great stock in historical evidence, which is part of the reason I became Catholic.

Regarding any restoration movement, to believe that Christ's church needed to be "restored" is to state the gates of hell did prevail, which is in direct contradiction to Mt 16:18. Bob, you find yourself in the same boat as Psy in this regard.

There is also the added factor that LDS accepts subsequent revelation, which implies that Christ Himself was not sufficient.

Sorry, but I cannot at this time accept the BoM and LDS as the answer on rational grounds.

 

[libby]

It's interesting to note that even LDS scholars cannot find the evidence to support the Book of Mormon that they desperately seek; however, it's not for lack of trying. I put great stock in historical evidence, which is part of the reason I became Catholic.

Regarding any restoration movement, to believe that Christ's church needed to be "restored" is to state the gates of hell did prevail, which is in direct contradiction to Mt 16:18. Bob, you find yourself in the same boat as Psy in this regard.

There is also the added factor that LDS accepts subsequent revelation, which implies that Christ Himself was not sufficient.

Sorry, but I cannot at this time accept the BoM and LDS as the answer on rational grounds.

With regards to the Mormon church, the Son of God established a church which failed within 100 years +/-. Joseph Smith, however, re-established the church which has now lasted nearly 200. So this means that J.S. did a better job than the Son of God Himself? Yeah, right.

 

[itsbob]

With regards to the Mormon church, the Son of God established a church which failed within 100 years +/-. Joseph Smith, however, re-established the church which has now lasted nearly 200. So this means that J.S. did a better job than the Son of God Himself? Yeah, right.

You're right.. since the cathol... no wait, Judai.. oh.. wait.. Buddhism.. has been around the longest, they HAVE to be right.

Bottom line, all of them are wrong.. You can pick which wrong you want to believe in, but the bottom line it's all fantasy.. You may as well pray to Hogwarts.. But believing in your fantasy, and then telling others their fantasy is WRONG.. is, well, WRONG!

 

[libby]

You're right.. since the cathol... no wait, Judai.. oh.. wait.. Buddhism.. has been around the longest, they HAVE to be right.

Bottom line, all of them are wrong.. You can pick which wrong you want to believe in, but the bottom line it's all fantasy.. You may as well pray to Hogwarts.. But believing in your fantasy, and then telling others their fantasy is WRONG.. is, well, WRONG!

I am only addressing Christianity. The few Mormons I know consider themselves Christian. Juxtaposing what Jesus Christ was able to do with Joseph Smith's "accomplishments" seems appropriate. As for non-Christians, there has never been a time when I even hinted that longevity has anything to do with Truth.

 

[ItalianScallion]

WOW, now you lump Mormons (Christians) JW (Christians) with Muslims to further your agenda?? SO much hate from such a little arrogant man..

See the Starman quote below please....
And how do you know I'm little? You been stalking me on that rice bike??

There ya go...just like Nucklesack, et all, who have not yet been able to comprehend that various religions who teach a different "Jesus" are not followers of the True Jesus of the Holy Bible! Just because they claim a "Jesus" in their theology does not make them a Christian sect even though they claim to be.

The Mormon "Jesus"- Is the spirit brother of Satan;
- Was married to many wives;
- Does not have the power of total forgiveness through His Atoning Blood

The Jehovah's Witness "Jesus"
- Is really the Archangel Michael and not the Divine Son of God;
- Is unable to grant complete Salvation through His Atoning Blood

These teachings are not supported by the Biblical account of the True Jesus, therefore, belief in the counterfeit Jesus of the Mormons and the counterfeit Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses does not make them "Christian" at all.

Frustrating, isn't it???

I have, for every doctrine you and IT have said is "man made", provided Scripture, which you both ignore.

I could say the same thing about you darling... There is a serious mis-interpretation going on here. What you are saying LOOKS like the meaning of the verses, but IN CONTEXT, it isn't.

The few Mormons I know consider themselves Christian.

Lots of people consider themselves Christians but they're not. Not according to me but according to God Himself. Starman & I quoted many passages about this. Why do you ignore them??? God is not a liberal. He does NOT grade on a curve. Many people will miss Heaven and only a few will find it. That's the narrow road Jesus spoke about in Matthew 7 v 13, 14. Notice how this verse is in the same chapter as the one about: "not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven"??? HOW CAN ANY OF YOU MISS THIS!!! It's soooo simple even I can see it!!

 

[Beta84]

6 million jews would disagree, well, if they were still alive..

And by your argument they would be the only True Church as they were around BEFORE Christ, and Before Catholicism.


I have to wonder, how many parents of abused children are still members?? I'd bet more than 90%.

what are you talking about? The Catholic church is hated far more than Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, and a bunch of other religions ALL PUT TOGETHER. They are clearly the most hated religion in the world

I'm not even gonna get into the turn this thread took, you can't argue with ignorance. :shrug:

 

[libby]

See the Starman quote below please....
And how do you know I'm little? You been stalking me on that rice bike??

Frustrating, isn't it???

I could say the same thing about you darling... There is a serious mis-interpretation going on here. What you are saying LOOKS like the meaning of the verses, but IN CONTEXT, it isn't.

Lots of people consider themselves Christians but they're not. Not according to me but according to God Himself. Starman & I quoted many passages about this. Why do you ignore them??? God is not a liberal. He does NOT grade on a curve. Many people will miss Heaven and only a few will find it. That's the narrow road Jesus spoke about in Matthew 7 v 13, 14. Notice how this verse is in the same chapter as the one about: "not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven"??? HOW CAN ANY OF YOU MISS THIS!!! It's soooo simple even I can see it!!

I said that Mormons consider themselves Christians, I didn't say that I considered them Christians. People have to be sure that they are coming from the same place when having a dialogue. I consider belief in the Trinity to be a necessary for a "Christian"; however, Mormon theology says that they are Christians because they believe that Jesus was the Redeemer. I am not interested in trying to have a conversation with LDS because we are not coming from the same place and I have no idea where to begin when the beliefs are so fundamentally different.