There is NO SUCH THING as a "Christian Terrorist"

[SamSpade]

Religion gave us a few good things, especially items relating to music, art, etc., but it's also, in my opinion, used as justification for the purest of evil across all of history.

Then I suppose we will never agree on this. The best concepts and ideas that I know of in history came from men of faith. I only read recently an article that the entire concept of cherishing children and not treating them like property is a historically new concept, attributable to Christian belief.

http://theweek.com/articles/551027/how-christianity-invented-children

Far too many of our nobler ideas of humanity derive from religion than anything else.

The best people I know or know of from history were all people of faith. In contrast, the worst were either those bereft of any, or those who deliberately used it while believing none of it.

I don't give much credibility to those who use ANY kind of "noble" reason for their evil - all evil people do this. Almost everything Pol Pot ever said indicated he thought himself a good person and working for the good of his people - while in the next sentence declaring death for millions. Drug kingpins justify what they do in the name of good. Whether you use religion or philosophy or eugenics or humanity - it doesn't matter. Every evil person excuses their behavior on the level that they are in fact doing good - the world is not full of Snidely Whiplashes twirling their mustaches thinking of evil to commit.

It does not impugn the religion any more than it impugns doing good.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Then I suppose we will never agree on this. The best concepts and ideas that I know of in history came from men of faith. I only read recently an article that the entire concept of cherishing children and not treating them like property is a historically new concept, attributable to Christian belief.

http://theweek.com/articles/551027/how-christianity-invented-children

Far too many of our nobler ideas of humanity derive from religion than anything else.

The best people I know or know of from history were all people of faith. In contrast, the worst were either those bereft of any, or those who deliberately used it while believing none of it.

I don't give much credibility to those who use ANY kind of "noble" reason for their evil - all evil people do this. Almost everything Pol Pot ever said indicated he thought himself a good person and working for the good of his people - while in the next sentence declaring death for millions. Drug kingpins justify what they do in the name of good. Whether you use religion or philosophy or eugenics or humanity - it doesn't matter. Every evil person excuses their behavior on the level that they are in fact doing good - the world is not full of Snidely Whiplashes twirling their mustaches thinking of evil to commit.

It does not impugn the religion any more than it impugns doing good.

I know some good people whom are atheists. I also know scum bags who think they get a free pass every Sunday. Obviously I'd like to limit the amount of scum bags I know and increase the amount of good people I know. Religious beliefs of those people tend to be very low (actually not even on my "list") on my list of "giving a ####".

There's people that believe there's something more. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that.
There's people that believe there's something more and it's their job to make sure you know it and if you don't follow also you're damned for all eternity. I hate that ####.
I hate the sanctimonious attitude some religious folks have and that I've witnessed in some churches.

I will agree that evil people are evil, and while it may not necessarily always be that individual committing the evil that uses religion as justification, those folks looking for an explanation often do.

I'm an atheist and I do good because I choose to. Not because I think it'll help me out in my next life. I don't hold the door open for #######s who don't thank me. I don't donate time, money, and materials because I want to tax break. I also don't believe that every good thing done in history has a religious reason behind it.

 

[This_person]

I'm an atheist and I do good because I choose to.

Define what "good" is - not through example, but through a repeatable and consistent set of standards.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Define what "good" is - not through example, but through a repeatable and consistent set of standards.

Good question. I suppose everyone has a different set of standards on what constitutes "good".

To me, "good" is making decisions in life that have a direct positive impact in other's lives. As I mentioned in my examples, it could be something as small as holding the door for someone, buying a solider or police officer coffee, or donating some old clothes to someone less fortunate.

It could be something a little bigger. Opening my house to an old friend who was going through substance abuse issues. Donating an old car to someone who needs it.

It could be something profound. Donating one's life savings to a cause they care about upon their death (we've all heard those stories).

I'd also consider things like financial management a "good" thing. I believe that management, a robust retirement plan, and the ability (or at least the drive) to want to better the lives of your children is a "good" thing.

I guess those are all examples (which you didn't ask for), but I figured it was the best way to get across my line of thinking. I wouldn't consider "good" as being a specific thing because it could, and does, vary from person to person. That being said, you could definitely argue that Pablo Escobar did "good", at least in his mind. Until he killed to get what he wanted. You could argue that religious extremist terrorists are "good" in their minds.

So I guess "good" things are more what others see as "good" and not what you yourself perceive as "good". Which can obviously have a large range of meanings, but at the end of the day, if you feel good about it, it can't be that bad.

 

[SamSpade]

There's people that believe there's something more and it's their job to make sure you know it and if you don't follow also you're damned for all eternity. I hate that ####.

Doesn't bother me. Bothers me about as much as Europeans who ridicule Americans for not being interested in soccer. So the hell what? I don't care how much it pisses you off.

I hate the sanctimonious attitude some religious folks have and that I've witnessed in some churches.

Works both ways - almost every atheist I know shows incredible condescension - "sanctimonious attitude" if you will - towards people of faith. They tolerate them, but personally believe what they believe in is the source of the purest evil ever foisted on the earth. They think they're weak-minded. They don't praise them - they pity them.

I guess it is perspective. My father on earth - the one who raised me - I think he's one of the best people who has ever lived. I'd rather do something that makes him proud of me than just about anything else I can do. I certainly don't think of him as a whimsical tyrant whom I can never please. I know people with fathers like that. Their father is at some level an abusive dictator, and if they try at all to win him over, it's an entirely unpleasant and mostly thankless task.

That's how some people see God. I don't. I see him the way I see my father on earth. And the good people I know - they do the same. They all do it much better than me. I don't like to see their lives minimized - they don't deserve it. Amazingly, they wouldn't mind.

 

[GURPS]

I hate the sanctimonious attitude some religious folks have and that I've witnessed in some churches.

that is a problem with PEOPLE - people who are imperfect, not Christianity

Works both ways - almost every atheist I know shows incredible condescension - "sanctimonious attitude" if you will - towards people of faith. They tolerate them, but personally believe what they believe in is the source of the purest evil ever foisted on the earth. They think they're weak-minded. They don't praise them - they pity them.

 

[SamSpade]

You could argue that religious extremist terrorists are "good" in their minds.

C.S. Lewis argued something along these lines in "Mere Christianity". Everyone wants to be regarded as "good". Do something awful, find a good 'reason'. Do something TERRIBLE, take umbrage at someone pointing it out to you - how dare they - they don't know WHY I did it.

But the underlying reason is always, what I did WAS good. You just don't get it.

Of course, his argument is to support the notion of the existence of good and evil - that there's a universal embrace of the idea, even if we fail to apply it to ourselves - we never call *ourselves* evil. The most wicked among us STILL thinks of themselves as 'good'.

 

[BlueBird]

I'm sure it was Muslims that have attacked Planned Parenthood locations ump-teen times.


Give me a break and stop acting like Christians are the bastion of caring and forgiveness and somehow exempt from committing terrorist attacks.

The true Christians are absolutely "the bastion of caring and forgiveness" as such they are 100% exempt from committing a terrorist act. These are the Christians he's referring to. Many people may claim to be Christians but the truth is that it's their actions which will define whether or not they actually are.

 

[PsyOps]

the NT isnt the whole book, and most of the stuff from the OT does indeed carry over. It very convienent that christians like to play the "that part dont apply" game to their book, but hold up passages from the Quran

You should judge them by what they do, and not your limited understanding of the bible. Christians aren't going around taking over territory, raping the women, molesting the children, lopping heads off unbelievers, and drowning their children in the sea. Christians have engaged in some very brutal things in the past; things they will have to answer to according to the NEW TESTAMENT. But that's not the Christian church of today.

 

[Midnightrider]

Doesn't bother me. Bothers me about as much as Europeans who ridicule Americans for not being interested in soccer. So the hell what? I don't care how much it pisses you off.



Works both ways - almost every atheist I know shows incredible condescension - "sanctimonious attitude" if you will - towards people of faith. They tolerate them, but personally believe what they believe in is the source of the purest evil ever foisted on the earth. They think they're weak-minded. They don't praise them - they pity them.

I guess it is perspective. My father on earth - the one who raised me - I think he's one of the best people who has ever lived. I'd rather do something that makes him proud of me than just about anything else I can do. I certainly don't think of him as a whimsical tyrant whom I can never please. I know people with fathers like that. Their father is at some level an abusive dictator, and if they try at all to win him over, it's an entirely unpleasant and mostly thankless task.

That's how some people see God. I don't. I see him the way I see my father on earth. And the good people I know - they do the same. They all do it much better than me. I don't like to see their lives minimized - they don't deserve it. Amazingly, they wouldn't mind.

while i dont think i technically fit the atheist model, i am pretty close. but i dont habor any resentment or ill will towards people who are faithful. My wife is very devote and i think it is a wonderful thing, for her. personally i think i must be nice to not have to worry about the meaning of life so much. To have the god questions put aside except in those most trying of times would certainly be nice. I also admire the sense of family and friendship you get from a good congregation.

 

[This_person]

Good question. I suppose everyone has a different set of standards on what constitutes "good".
...
So I guess "good" things are more what others see as "good" and not what you yourself perceive as "good". Which can obviously have a large range of meanings, but at the end of the day, if you feel good about it, it can't be that bad.

The point of the exercise was to allow you to demonstrate to yourself that you have no set standard for what is "good" beyond, frankly, whatever you think it is. You did so, using actions that are considered "good" by Christian standards (because that is the society in which you were raised), but you freely admit you have no standard.

The difference between the religious and the atheist is that the religious has an outside-themselves standard for what is good, right, moral. Now, I'm not suggesting that all religions are equal in what these things are - indeed, killing your daughter for the crime of being raped is considered "good" in some religions. But, they have a standard by which they go that is outside of "that's how I feel today".

You ascribed a list of motivations to the religious, and I vehemently disagree with them. A Christian, acting in accordance with the NT, does "good" based on a desire to be more like the Lord, to pay respects to the Lord, to glorify the Lord. It is not "because ... it'll help me out in my next life."

As a general rule, when one has a set standard by which to go, and that set standard is consistent in the society in which one lives, there's a lot of harmony. It is the disparate ways we, as humans, interpret the standards (see Shi'ite vs. Sunni), or which standards we follow (see Islam vs. everything else) where disharmony comes in.

All atheism is, in my humble opinion, is another religion. We all take a look at observable data and come to conclusions based on it. Mine is that there is a benevolent Intelligent Creator and there is meaning in life, yours is that some cells got together and created a great Cosmic Accident that has perpetuated itself. Neither one of us can prove our thought process - it's just taken on faith and observable information. Mine creates a standard that is outside of me, yours creates a standard by which to live that is entirely individualized.

I didn't know if you realized it, but it sounds like you do with your second sentence.

 

[Midnightrider]

You should judge them by what they do, and not your limited understanding of the bible. Christians aren't going around taking over territory, raping the women, molesting the children, lopping heads off unbelievers, and drowning their children in the sea. Christians have engaged in some very brutal things in the past; things they will have to answer to according to the NEW TESTAMENT. But that's not the Christian church of today.

i do judge them by what they do, and what the vast majority of muslims do is live peacefully. I judge christians the same way, on an individual basis. I dont hold the entirity of christiandom responsible for the acts of the KKK or other groups that preach hate and terror from the bible.

Read up on what muslims actually teach and you will see that ISIS is not the muslim church of today, they are the KKK of Islam.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

The point of the exercise was to allow you to demonstrate to yourself that you have no set standard for what is "good" beyond, frankly, whatever you think it is. You did so, using actions that are considered "good" by Christian standards (because that is the society in which you were raised), but you freely admit you have no standard.

The difference between the religious and the atheist is that the religious has an outside-themselves standard for what is good, right, moral. Now, I'm not suggesting that all religions are equal in what these things are - indeed, killing your daughter for the crime of being raped is considered "good" in some religions. But, they have a standard by which they go that is outside of "that's how I feel today".

You ascribed a list of motivations to the religious, and I vehemently disagree with them. A Christian, acting in accordance with the NT, does "good" based on a desire to be more like the Lord, to pay respects to the Lord, to glorify the Lord. It is not "because ... it'll help me out in my next life."

As a general rule, when one has a set standard by which to go, and that set standard is consistent in the society in which one lives, there's a lot of harmony. It is the disparate ways we, as humans, interpret the standards (see Shi'ite vs. Sunni), or which standards we follow (see Islam vs. everything else) where disharmony comes in.

All atheism is, in my humble opinion, is another religion. We all take a look at observable data and come to conclusions based on it. Mine is that there is a benevolent Intelligent Creator and there is meaning in life, yours is that some cells got together and created a great Cosmic Accident that has perpetuated itself. Neither one of us can prove our thought process - it's just taken on faith and observable information. Mine creates a standard that is outside of me, yours creates a standard by which to live that is entirely individualized.

I didn't know if you realized it, but it sounds like you do with your second sentence.

I pointed out what you're saying, as I suspected that was the direction you're going.

I'm also saying that I fail to believe that doing "good" is based solely on those Christian standards and not simply because if you don't do those things, you're a dick. I picture these good deeds as more of a personal thing. Plenty of people claim to be Christians and don't want to be more Christ-like.

It's also much more than a daily whim of wanting to be "good". It's an entire lifestyle with, in my opinion, varying degrees of "good".

You agree with me, but concede that folks do good because it's more Christ like. You concede that doing good is in the bible (or the version you choose). Is it not true that the Bible and Christ's teachings prepare you for the afterlife in heaven? Not following those teachings will condemn you to hell for all eternity? If it is true (at least to some extent without beating around the bush), then yes, many folks do good things because they believe it'll help them in the next life. People who are broke in this life don't donate to church with the expectation that it simple ends one day. People who commit crimes or get ####-faced Saturday night (or touch pig skin, wear polyester, eat shellfish, or the other things the bible says not to do, but I digress) don't go to church and repent on Sunday because it cures a hangover. Activists such as anti-abortion nutters and the Westboro Baptist Church members don't protest and attack Planned Parenthood locations or picket soldier's funerals because it helps raise money.

They do it because they truly believe it will help them in the next life, no?

 

[This_person]

I pointed out what you're saying, as I suspected that was the direction you're going.

I'm also saying that I fail to believe that doing "good" is based solely on those Christian standards and not simply because if you don't do those things, you're a dick. I picture these good deeds as more of a personal thing. Plenty of people claim to be Christians and don't want to be more Christ-like.

It's also much more than a daily whim of wanting to be "good". It's an entire lifestyle with, in my opinion, varying degrees of "good".

You agree with me, but concede that folks do good because it's more Christ like. You concede that doing good is in the bible (or the version you choose). Is it not true that the Bible and Christ's teachings prepare you for the afterlife in heaven? Not following those teachings will condemn you to hell for all eternity? If it is true (at least to some extent without beating around the bush), then yes, many folks do good things because they believe it'll help them in the next life. People who are broke in this life don't donate to church with the expectation that it simple ends one day. People who commit crimes or get ####-faced Saturday night (or touch pig skin, wear polyester, eat shellfish, or the other things the bible says not to do, but I digress) don't go to church and repent on Sunday because it cures a hangover. Activists such as anti-abortion nutters and the Westboro Baptist Church members don't protest and attack Planned Parenthood locations or picket soldier's funerals because it helps raise money.

They do it because they truly believe it will help them in the next life, no?

In a word, no.

People do it because it glorifies the Lord. They do it because they are trying to be more Christ-like. That's what a Christian does. A selfish person who is not looking to Christ for salvation tries to do it as insurance against a bad future. That is not a purity. It is far less about what you do than why you do it.

People sin. Sin is not only expected, it's almost required to prove humanity. That's not unChrisitian-like. An attempt to repent of those sins and not sin again tomorrow is Christian-like. Not judging others is Christian, judging others' actions is unChristian-like.

You say not being good is just being a dick. While I put more on it than that, that's not really what I was saying. I was saying what you have decided internally to be "good" and "not good" is based on the society in which you live, in which you grew up. The people around you act in what is generally a Christian set of values. That does not mean everyone is Christian, or you have to be Christian to do something that would be considered "good", it means what you consider "good" is based on a set of values given to you by a Christian culture.

 

[somdwatch]

You may have missed the point. If you OBEY Mohammed, you're going to commit terrorism. If you don't slay the infidel, you're not obeying him - you're not Muslim.
Contrast to the teachings of Jesus, where if you commit terrorism, you are NOT obeying Jesus. You're not a Christian.

One teacher says, kill the infidel. Following him means, you'll kill the infidel.
The other teacher says pray for him, bless your persecutors and don't repay evil for evil. If you follow HIM, you'll never kill the infidel.

People call themselves whatever they want, but to BE a Muslim or Christian involve different behavior.

This would be the case of "Christians" who kill, bomb etc of planned parenthood, to say your Christian, doesn't necessarily make it so. It's more of what the person perceives him/herself to be. A freaken nut case if they are acting out violence on others.

 

[PsyOps]

i do judge them by what they do, and what the vast majority of muslims do is live peacefully. I judge christians the same way, on an individual basis. I dont hold the entirity of christiandom responsible for the acts of the KKK or other groups that preach hate and terror from the bible.

Read up on what muslims actually teach and you will see that ISIS is not the muslim church of today, they are the KKK of Islam.

If you’re trying to compare what ‘Christians’ are doing in the name of Christianity to what ‘Muslims’ are doing in the name of Islam, there isn’t one. The WORLD is suffering from this cancer of murderous ‘Muslims’ – it’s a global problem. There is no global problem with ‘Christians’.

As to what Muslims are teaching in their Mosques, there is this:

French Authorities Close Three Mosques During State of Emergency

PARIS—French authorities used sweeping emergency powers instated since the Nov. 13 terror attacks to close down three mosques suspected of nurturing Islamist radicalization, France’s interior minister said Wednesday.

The closures targeted what Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve called “preachers of hate, self-proclaimed pseudo-imams and cultural pseudo-associations calling for hatred.”

In Wednesday raids at the homes of the leaders of a mosque in Lagny-Sur-Marne, 22 miles east of Paris, authorities found a 9mm revolver, documents about jihad and an encrypted hard drive, he said.

Investigators are also using powers granted under France's state of emergency to restrict the movement of people suspected of being radicalized. Following the dawn raids in Lagny-Sur-Marne, authorities banned 22 people from leaving the country and confined nine of them to their homes.

The sweep was part of the government’s massive security crackdown in the weeks since coordinated attacks on the streets of Paris left 130 people dead and hundreds injured. Since President François Hollande declared a state of emergency the night of the attacks, police have conducted more than 2,200 raids on homes and businesses, detained 232 people and seized 334 weapons, including 34 military weapons.

It's my suspicion that this sort of teaching - radicalizing - is going happening on a large scale.

 

[Midnightrider]

If you’re trying to compare what ‘Christians’ are doing in the name of Christianity to what ‘Muslims’ are doing in the name of Islam, there isn’t one. The WORLD is suffering from this cancer of murderous ‘Muslims’ – it’s a global problem. There is no global problem with ‘Christians’.

As to what Muslims are teaching in their Mosques, there is this:

French Authorities Close Three Mosques During State of Emergency

​

It's my suspicion that this sort of teaching - radicalizing - is going happening on a large scale.

I am comparing what the vast majority of Muslims do in the name of Allah with what the vast majority of Christians do in the name of Jesus.

 

[This_person]

I am comparing what the vast majority of Muslims do in the name of Allah with what the vast majority of Christians do in the name of Jesus.

Why? It's demonstrable that the majority of Islamic terror can be tied to scripture, and equally demonstrable that terror people do in the name of Christianity is entirely against scripture. Doesn't that seem at best a disingenuous comparison?

However, if you are going to compare the vast majority of Muslims and Christians, they're all peace-loving and do not harm others - in incredibly high percentages of each religion this is true.

 

[Midnightrider]

Why? It's demonstrable that the majority of Islamic terror can be tied to scripture, and equally demonstrable that terror people do in the name of Christianity is entirely against scripture. Doesn't that seem at best a disingenuous comparison?

However, if you are going to compare the vast majority of Muslims and Christians, they're all peace-loving and do not harm others - in incredibly high percentages of each religion this is true.

If we are talking about making religion based laws we have to be talking about what the vast majority do. We already have laws against murder, terrorism, and treason. We don't need anymore laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have. Sound familiar?

 

[PsyOps]

I am comparing what the vast majority of Muslims do in the name of Allah with what the vast majority of Christians do in the name of Jesus.

Yes, I know you are. And in today's times, there is no comparison.