These kids are in for a rude awakening...

This_person

Well-Known Member
Let's put this in context. For the first time in world history, we have the material ability to provide food, clothing and shelter for everyone on the planet, ever cheaper and with ever LESS need for more workers to do it. That is what success looks like.

However, now what? We keep adding people...that we don't need.

Further, and I think this is the thing that hangs up many people, including Kwil, we live in a fiat economy. There is no cash being exchanged, no gold, no goods or services. You don't sweep the floor for the grocery store, you don't do oil changes for the car dealer, you don't provide yarn for the sweater store. And you don't physically help some Super Chicken to make bread. You swipe a card, a transaction occurs. Period. It's not real other than because we all agree to it being real.
I don't know the story about Super Chicken (wasn't that a Howard Stern character?), so I removed that part. But, I wanted to address this part.

People DO sweep floors, change oil, paint pictures, make memes, sing songs, teach people, build cars, etc. For those services, someone electronically fills up that magic little card with the thing that makes it work when you insert the chip into the chip reader (swipe? Are you seriously from the stone age????).

How do you expect those electrons on your card to get there?

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This_person

Well-Known Member
[W]e could say, yeah, one chicken CAN make it all, feed everyone and all the others can do other things, things that have NOTHING to do with survival because we're so successful, we got that covered SO well that ONE chicken can feed a farm.

That opens up a moral can of worms.
Um, that's what we ARE saying. If the chicken wants to make bread (remember, I've not read the story - no clue here), let the chicken do that and feed people. In return, those people will provide that chicken with little electrons on Chicken's magic card. The other people got the little electrons by doing something (like Chicken) that other people want/need/choose to trade electrons for.

That's the moral of the story as I'm hearing it.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Nope. I said NOTHING about equality. I got NO problem if Super Chicken gets the master bedroom and gets to take vacations and have an airplane and yacht and all sorts of stuff. Maybe THAT is what the others can do instead of the chicken watching them starve to death?
I want to watch no one starve to death. I also do not want to become someone's slave and work for their well-being while they are not working for mine. I think that's a fair trade.

Now, just yesterday I was driving in Waldorf (OMG, WHY DO I DO THAT????), and a guy was (like usual) in the median at the intersection of 301/5 and Mattawoman-Beantown. I had six bucks in my wallet, and pulled out 5 and gave it to him. He may be a con man, he may be a homeless man who needs help, he may be an addict that's trying to get his life back together, he may be a mentally-deranged psychopath who will buy bullets with my money and shoot up a school. I have no idea at all which he was. But, I CHOSE of my own volition to believe he needed help, and I gave him the help I could give him at the time. That was my choice. I do NOT in any way expect that the car behind or ahead of me must also give him $5. I do NOT believe the government should give him $5. I believe he should find a job doing whatever and earn his keep. Maybe my $5 went to a sandwich at Subway to get him through the evening, maybe it went to a new doodad for his BMW as he laughed at me for just giving my money up. I don't know, I don't care. It was my choice and I did it. If I had been ordered to do it, I would not have done it and not wanted to.

Do you see the difference?
 
If we use that kids story, we could say, about today, to make my point for 6 years olds, "Yeah, plenty of bread CAN be made by ONE chicken, more than enough to feed EVERYONE else but the right thing to do is watch them starve to death because, if they do not help work the bread process, they DESERVE to die." OR we could say, yeah, one chicken CAN make it all, feed everyone and all the others can do other things, things that have NOTHING to do with survival because we're so successful, we got that covered SO well that ONE chicken can feed a farm.

That opens up a moral can of worms.
The chicken does not receive payment/reward to make enough bread for the lazy animals so there should be no moral expectation that the chicken is obligated to do so. If you are claiming that the chicken has the option to elect to work extra hard to make tons of bread for the lazy for some form of payment than that has nothing to do with the story at all.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
The chicken does not receive payment/reward to make enough bread for the lazy animals so there should be no moral expectation that the chicken is obligated to do so. If you are claiming that the chicken has the option to elect to work extra hard to make tons of bread for the lazy for some form of payment than that has nothing to do with the story at all.
That's fine. Watch 'em die. Refuse to see any value in your fellow human beings when they're not meeting your expectations of what they ought to be doing.

And I made no such claim, that the chicken had an option. I take it at face value; the chicken made plenty of bread for all, took care of her own and refused to give any to those she deemed didn't deserve any.

Great lesson, that.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I want to watch no one starve to death. I also do not want to become someone's slave and work for their well-being while they are not working for mine. I think that's a fair trade. ?

The story is classic zero sum thinking. It's a moral justification tale that it's OK to not share based on ones expectations of what one thinks others ought to be doing. It's an oligarchs wet dream. "I 'earned' it all and to hell with everyone else'.
 
That's fine. Watch 'em die. Refuse to see any value in your fellow human beings when they're not meeting your expectations of what they ought to be doing.

And I made no such claim, that the chicken had an option. I take it at face value; the chicken made plenty of bread for all, took care of her own and refused to give any to those she deemed didn't deserve any.

Great lesson, that.
Throughout the story they were asked to contribute effort along the way and chose not to do so. They chose not to make an effort to feed themselves so if they starve to death its on them.

You should read the story.
 
The story is classic zero sum thinking. It's a moral justification tale that it's OK to not share based on ones expectations of what one thinks others ought to be doing. It's an oligarchs wet dream. "I 'earned' it all and to hell with everyone else'.
They were offered a chance to join in on the work required with the end result (bread) being shared for their efforts and chose not to... you should read the story.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Throughout the story they were asked to contribute effort along the way and chose not to do so. They chose not to make an effort to feed themselves so if they starve to death its on them.

You should read the story.
I read the story. You read the story. We all read the story. Except for This_Person. :lol:

The lesson is a simple one; if someone doesn't help you, do what YOU ask, then, it's Ok and proper to let them starve while completely ignoring the endless things they did and do that are not what you ASKED them to do but very well may have helped and you simply can't see it because, even though you can speak and make bread, you're not THAT a smart enough chicken to think beyond your own control issues.

And this completely leaves out that chickens will kill and eat one another's babies. In a heart beat.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
That's the example you wanna use, really? That a highly successful, independent chicken makes enough bread to feed everyone on the farm but was unable or unwilling to negotiate to get some help, help, clearly, she didn't need in the first place, and then, sits there, smugly, feeding her babies while watching everyone else starve to death? Because they, ostensibly, did absolutely NOTHING the entire time, from planting to harvest to processing to eating? They did NOTHING. No cow #### to create manure? No worm aerated the soil? No bee pollinated anything? No insects were consumed by the hen until the bread was ready? No companionship? No keeping the hawks away from her while she worked? No music or entertainment?

Maybe this is what I really don't get around here; this is how you people actually think. Like children.

The little red hen CAN feed everyone. And chooses not to. Because she's a narrow minded, entirely self interested entity that sees NO value in anyone or anything else UNLESS they are doing specifically what she wants them to do.

Your Little Red Hen was clearly a "progressive". They give less to charity than any other group, and I have personally seen many of them in action. *They* don't want to share, they just want *you* to share. Especially if they're wealthy, they are laughably stingy.

The Little Red Hen in the actual story is more of a good hearted conservative, who is quite capable of feeding herself and her young, and only asks for a little help if someone wants her to feed them as well. The other animals in the story are the guy your grandfather encountered, who panhandled him for money and, when he offered them a job, they refused because they don't want to put forth any effort into feeding themselves.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Larry, I have to ask, with all the starving people in this country and the people who don't have money for health care, why haven't you sold your motorcycle and given that money to the poor? If you are still seeing the same girlfriend, I know she lives in a big ass house in a high end neighborhood. Why don't you all sell that house, live in a hut, and give that money to the less fortunate?

Why aren't you sharing?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Looking at an '03 F250 Super Duty, 7.3, 180k.

Also an '05 Ram 2500 Cummins 12 valve, 290k (best I can tell is the 24 valve is more complexity for no definitive advantage)

Older Chevy's don't seem to earn much credit.


Want; used, under $10k, diesel, 4by4, extended cab (not crew, but crew OK) 6.5' bed, 8' is not out of the question.

I think I want 250/2500's and up. Towing dual wheel work trailers regularly and want to be able to tow camper and maybe 5th wheel some day.
Wow, you must be rich! Why don't you get a bicycle instead, or take public transportation, and give that money to those who have no food?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Now, read that. It says he was never paid enough. Now, add another guy or 2 or 10 to his job, some automation, some AI, and NOW, what happens? He suddenly is paid 'enough' or even less, if ANYTHING?
Sounds like he needs to find another skill, another job.

You know what they say, the person who knows how to do something will always have a job and the person who knows WHY it is done and done that way will always be the first person's boss.

But, you're missing the meat of the meaning - no one wants "wish I would have spent more time at work" on their gravestone. They want, "loving mother/father, perfect daughter/son", etc. Yet, there it is, we HAVE to exchange our abilities to receive our rewards.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Wow, you must be rich! Why don't you get a bicycle instead, or take public transportation, and give that money to those who have no food?
I've done something over $20 million in sales the last 30 years, employed at some point or other something over 100 people, spent all that and more for COGS, maintenance and repairs, health care, taxes and lost it all.

All of which you know. So, how about you go find someone who either doesn't know jack #### about what they're talking about or is impressed with your having decided how the entire world works 40 years ago and have clung to it ever since?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
The story is classic zero sum thinking. It's a moral justification tale that it's OK to not share based on ones expectations of what one thinks others ought to be doing. It's an oligarchs wet dream. "I 'earned' it all and to hell with everyone else'.
I still don't want to be their slave.

I'm a Christian, and I am to love my neighbor as Jesus loves me. In the end, that's very hard to do, because I am also to be good to my family. At some point, I am not Jesus. I do not know that I could die for my fellow man. I mean, I am a veteran so I actually volunteered to do exactly that, but I never really expected to be placed in the position to make the decision. I guess it would boil down to the specifics of the situation.

If the specifics of the situation are I'm working myself to death to feed able-bodied individuals who simply don't want to feed themselves, I'm not doing it. If the situation is my death results in the ability of many to do what they need to do for all to be free, I probably would. That's not very Jesus-like of me, as Jesus loves us all and forgives us all, but I am human.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Sounds like he needs to find another skill, another job.

You know what they say, the person who knows how to do something will always have a job and the person who knows WHY it is done and done that way will always be the first person's boss.

But, you're missing the meat of the meaning - no one wants "wish I would have spent more time at work" on their gravestone. They want, "loving mother/father, perfect daughter/son", etc. Yet, there it is, we HAVE to exchange our abilities to receive our rewards.
Of course and he may well. However, as I keep repeating, when food, shelter and clothing, human essentials, are covered and we CAN take care of that for everyone, and way more AND need less and less a percentage of us every year to keep up with and accelerate that, we ARE talking about finding employment in something not needed. When we talk of ending welfare, you're talking about putting how many millions more into the workforce? When we talk about cutting gummint fat, how many more does that dump into the labor supply? Both parties have over seen a defacto open border policy that has put another 20 million or so into the force.

So, what happens when expanding supply of labor meets shrinking demand for it? Already very poor wages are impacted some more. :buddies:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I've done something over $20 million in sales the last 30 years, employed at some point or other something over 100 people, spent all that and more for COGS, maintenance and repairs, health care, taxes and lost it all.

All of which you know. So, how about you go find someone who either doesn't know jack #### about what they're talking about or is impressed with your having decided how the entire world works 40 years ago and have clung to it ever since?
And you shared equally with all of your employees, right? All of them made the exact same amount of money as you did, right?

It is amusing to watch you pontificate, then get angry when someone challenges you with, you know, facts.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I still don't want to be their slave.

I'm a Christian, and I am to love my neighbor as Jesus loves me. In the end, that's very hard to do, because I am also to be good to my family. At some point, I am not Jesus. I do not know that I could die for my fellow man. I mean, I am a veteran so I actually volunteered to do exactly that, but I never really expected to be placed in the position to make the decision. I guess it would boil down to the specifics of the situation.

If the specifics of the situation are I'm working myself to death to feed able-bodied individuals who simply don't want to feed themselves, I'm not doing it. If the situation is my death results in the ability of many to do what they need to do for all to be free, I probably would. That's not very Jesus-like of me, as Jesus loves us all and forgives us all, but I am human.
What does this have to do with the reality that we have less and less to fight over? Who is asking for anyone to be a slave?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
The fact is that when Larry was making money, he wouldn't give a cripple a wooden leg. He was all about toys and stuff for him. Now that he's unemployed and on the skids, NOW he thinks "rich" people should "share" with him.

It's very much like the celebrity environmentalists who blather on about how everyone should reduce their carbon footprint, blah blah blah, while they are jetting solo around the globe and enjoying their multiple mansions. "We need to take care of the planet! No, not me - I'm special - *you* need to take care of the planet."

:lol:

If you all would walk the walk, perhaps the rest of us wouldn't mock you.
 
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