I'm not good at that, though, plus I don't find it entertaining - especially if I'm trying to have a real discussion and get information. :kicksrocks:
This Kashoggi person
- Thread starter vraiblonde
- Start date
I'm not good at that, though, plus I don't find it entertaining - especially if I'm trying to have a real discussion and get information. :kicksrocks:
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
- SA can't single handedly control gas prices long term. They would not be willing to artificially inflate gas prices and affect their own economy.
- We haven't sold anything to them yet.
- SA has long relied on US weapons. They need our weapons. We have the upper hand. Even if they do decide to go elsewhere, who cares? Is the idea of weapons sales better than sending a message to a regime with long-standing humanitarian and terrorist problems? 9/11 vitcims may disagree.
- Again, who cares? We are helping them fight their relgious wars. Why is that our fight and why does the age-old excuse of "let the middle east sort it out themselves" not apply here?
- Arms and military equipment manufacturers are not hurting. That's laughable, especially considering the increased military spending under Trump. You don't care that Americans pay more for goods due to tariffs, but use "Americans pay more for gas" as justification here?
- We hold the upper hand, not SA. Sending them equipment and doing nothing sends no message to a country with more than this issue on their hands.
- Trump should not let his personal affiliation with SA influence his decision.
After reading Vrai's posts (shh, she still thinks otherwise), thus her Fox opinion piece, I was reading Rand Paul's (also on Fox).
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sen...onship-with-saudi-arabia-it-is-not-our-friend
See, this is the conversation I want to have.
I don't know why we want to get involved in the Saudis' business. Who cares? They're not our "friends", they are our business associates. I get tired of people blathering about "friends" like it's 7th grade or something.
This is just a "gotcha" at Trump. If he does nothing, they'll keen in the streets about how he's "allowing" his "friends" the Saudis to kill everyone. If he threatens them in any way, they'll keen in the streets about how he's alienating our "friend" and "partner". If it were me, I'd let them keen in the streets for whatever reason they can come up with, then send in the National Guard with the fire hoses.
I admit I don't know crap about this WashPo journalist or the Saudi prince, mainly because I don't care. Personalities don't interest me. They either want to do business or they don't, and I don't think it's up to us to police the world and be the morality cops. We have fish to fry right here and don't need to be nosing into other countries' business that doesn't concern us. This is between Saudi and Turkey. The end.
Citizen, in the Saudi Consulate [which is viewed as being in SA]
carving a guy up with a bone saw while he is still alive is a bit
.... but it is the Business of SA not of the US.Personally I would have whisked him away in a windowless van to the airport flown him out on a diplomatic flight and he would be released at 30,000 feet over the MI some where
carving a guy up with a bone saw while he is still alive is a bit
Has this been confirmed? Last I saw - this morning - it had not been.
Hijinx
Well-Known Member
In your response you say
Then in the next sentence you say
Hmm Did they steal those weapons they so rely on? Do they really need our weapons or can they use someone else's? Do we care if we give jobs to Americans who build these weapons? I care.
I guess they aren't, but contracts to the Saudi's are part of why they are not hurting.
I didn't know Trump had a personal affiliation with the Saudi's do you have a link or is that just another in the alleged affiliation, like the BS Russian collusion joke.
a report I read this morning said the Turks have the Audio ... but not that I heard
supposedly part of the recording has been given to Turkish News
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
You're right, and my apologizes for not being more detailed in that response. Historically, the Saudis have bought US weapons and gear. They have not bought anything related to the $110 billion deal Trump touted earlier this year. I say that because Trump has said it wouldn't be acceptable to "stop $110 billion from being spent" here. The contracts that were signed would not be invalid, so the planes and things they bought certainly wouldn't sit "unsold".
The contracts help, sure, but SA isn't keeping them afloat. They will be fine without SA, if that were to happen. I think it's a bad thing to sell weapons to a regime with a history of supporting terrorism, but maybe that's just me.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1052186219696803841
https://twitter.com/FoxNewsResearch/status/1052200150066708480
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
It's certainly not up to us to police the world, so I'm not sure why we are, nor why we continually elect people who think otherwise. We also shouldn't be helping the Saudis in their war crimes in Yemen.
The Magnitsky Act makes it our business.
What are we doing?
Yooper
Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
As someone who spent 2/3 of his career working in or supporting embassies/DoD initiatives/State initiatives in both non-intel- and intel-related assignments/agencies, etc. I can tell you that there are multitudes of reasons as to why we should care (both direct and indirect). I mentioned in an earlier post a number of dynamics where Saudi Arabia is key/central (some the U.S. wishes SA would not be so central, some the U.S. is glad it is).
Interesting post this a.m. on NRO: What Do We Really Know about Saudi Arabia? that is spot-on and worth the read. That is generally the first question that comes up in embassy Country Team meetings when events like this happen. And when they do, the ambassador turns to both the CIA Chief of Station and DoD Defense Attache and asks, "What are your sources telling you?" And to be honest, in countries where operations are generally denied (like Russia, China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) the answers are generally not very comprehensive; more speculative than factual.
The same discussion is going on right now at the NSC, at Langley, at the Pentagon, at State, etc. Why? Because there is more to Kashoggi than Kashoggi. What happened to him and how the what happened are all clues to something bigger than Kashoggi. Here's Williamson:
In the immediate aftermath of the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, one observer with considerable on-the-ground knowledge of Saudi affairs suggested that there were multiple possible explanations for the case: It could have been a straightforward hit on a critic of the regime ordered by Mohammad bin Salman himself; it could have been a straightforward hit on a critic of the regime carried out without the knowledge of Mohammad bin Salman; it could have been a hit carried out by rivals of Mohammad bin Salman, such as Mohammad bin Nayef, who had been next in line to the throne until Mohammad bin Salman pushed him aside, or Mutaib bin Abdullah, one of the Saudi princes arrested last year on corruption charges, who was fined $1 billion and removed from the government, for the purpose of messing with the crown prince’s life. It’s even possible that the Erdogan regime in Turkey was mixed up in this, he suggested.
In other words, what happened to Kashoggi MAY provide critical insight into what's going on in the KSA. That's important for U.S. interests throughout the Middle East. So while the optics of Pompeo's visit to KSA may not be the best, they are still the right call: easier to get more info with smiles than frowns (we Americans tend to forget that other cultures play by different rules so that what may play well here doesn't "there" and vice versa). Also, if this is a internal family issue, then this could be a botched score settling ("botched," in the sense that it got out into the news cycle. That Turkey may have been responsible for getting it into the news cycle is also of great interest (one reason is that Erdogan and the U.S. are at odds these days and he just might have found a way to make mischief with the U.S. via the U.S.-KSA "alliance")).
But much of the MSM journalists here in the U.S. are interested in Kashoggi because a) he's a journalist and probably, more importantly b) as another opportunity to blast Trump.
I mentioned earlier that since Kashoggi was a journalist at some pojnt for the WaPo he might be afforded some protections under U.S. law b/c the WaPo is a U.S. company (and thus, the USG has a legal requirement to be interested). Don't know if that's true in this case, but back when I was in the game, where intel sources are concerned foreign citizens are afforded (at least, initially) the same rights as US citizens if they work for a U.S. entity (which the WaPo is). (Interestingly, journalists (like clergy) are a "protected class" when it comes to intel ops....)
So, in summary, I think we should be interested in Kashoggi for three reasons. 1) international "Great Game" issues. 2) Human rights perspective. 3) Domestic political gaming in the run up to the mid-term elections (had this happened outside of an election window Kashoggi would only be a topic for the first two reasons and only among a far smaller crowd and we would end up with exactly Vrai's fair, initial question).
--- End of ramble (MCP)
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Yooper
Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
Another excellent contribution: Trump Is Right To Be Cautious With The Saudis On Kashoggi. Readers here may find the snippet on DIME interesting:
A central plank of the education that officers receive at the War College is a paradigm called DIME. It is an acronym that lists the levers of power that the United States can employ to exert our will on other nations. It stands for Diplomacy, Information, Military, and Economic. Under these four headings exist every option that our government has to punish Saudi Arabia. It is useful to look at each, as the Trump administration will no doubt be doing, to see which, if any, would prove most effective.
DIME has actually been expanded, but the expansion could more or less be considered sub-sets of DIME.
I really enjoyed my year at the War College oh so way back when. My career track started out as a warfighter but moved on to more esoteric endeavors. It was interesting watching soon-to-be brigade commanders learn there was more to US power than solely kinetics. Hence, DIME.
--- End of update (MCP)
BOP
Well-Known Member
BOP
Well-Known Member
I think they're going big on this. From what I've read so far is they want to get rid of the Saudi prince reformer guy. Leftists in cahoots with terrorists...who'd a thunk, ey BHO?