This Perfectly Sums Up What “Rights” Mean to Liberals
- Thread starter GURPS
- Start date
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
I have to admit, the subject is one I have a hard time taking a side when it comes to just rights and freedom.
If we recognize that a private club or business has a right to refuse to do business with people or forbid certain behavior
on their property, generally for the sake of freedom - I accept that. I don't like it, but I generally assume that businesses
that function like that are hurting themselves and will take a hit for it.
However, it's not some part of me that bristles with anger at the thought of someone being refused service because of their
skin color or religion or - well, anything. ALL of me hates it, and I've seen people discriminated against for what for all the world
looks like prejudice against elderly, prejudice against mentally handicapped (I seriously don't know what the PC term is anymore)
or the physically handicapped - even AGAINST veterans, if you can believe it. It borders on rage when I see it.
But if I stay on the whole issue in terms of straight logic, I can't fault them for it. I mean, I can't support the idea of a hotel removing
Bibles from the rooms - because that's allowable - or heck, night clubs refusing entry to patrons based on how hot they are - but have
much of a leg to stand on when it comes to other forms of discrimination.
I do know people who have strong objections to gay lifestyles - I've seen people leave organizations because the organization changed
their position, and while I miss them, I respect they're willing to take a hit socially to defend their belief. They chose to leave rather
than fight the decision. It's their belief.
But I can DO that, because it's just a few people. If there was a restaurant that refused service to people of a given race,
I wouldn't go there. But what would people of that race do if ALL of the restaurants did that? What do you do when it's not ONE
bus line sending you to the back - but all of them? When all of the lunch counters refuse to serve you? THEN what? Wait for
everyone else to boycott them?
I do however think most of the kerfuffle over gays being refused a wedding cake or floral arrangements is a tempest in a teapot.
As Ann Coulter observed in recent column, what, there's no such thing as a gay florist or baker (even ignoring all the other establishments
that WOULD work with them)?
If we recognize that a private club or business has a right to refuse to do business with people or forbid certain behavior
on their property, generally for the sake of freedom - I accept that. I don't like it, but I generally assume that businesses
that function like that are hurting themselves and will take a hit for it.
However, it's not some part of me that bristles with anger at the thought of someone being refused service because of their
skin color or religion or - well, anything. ALL of me hates it, and I've seen people discriminated against for what for all the world
looks like prejudice against elderly, prejudice against mentally handicapped (I seriously don't know what the PC term is anymore)
or the physically handicapped - even AGAINST veterans, if you can believe it. It borders on rage when I see it.
But if I stay on the whole issue in terms of straight logic, I can't fault them for it. I mean, I can't support the idea of a hotel removing
Bibles from the rooms - because that's allowable - or heck, night clubs refusing entry to patrons based on how hot they are - but have
much of a leg to stand on when it comes to other forms of discrimination.
I do know people who have strong objections to gay lifestyles - I've seen people leave organizations because the organization changed
their position, and while I miss them, I respect they're willing to take a hit socially to defend their belief. They chose to leave rather
than fight the decision. It's their belief.
But I can DO that, because it's just a few people. If there was a restaurant that refused service to people of a given race,
I wouldn't go there. But what would people of that race do if ALL of the restaurants did that? What do you do when it's not ONE
bus line sending you to the back - but all of them? When all of the lunch counters refuse to serve you? THEN what? Wait for
everyone else to boycott them?
I do however think most of the kerfuffle over gays being refused a wedding cake or floral arrangements is a tempest in a teapot.
As Ann Coulter observed in recent column, what, there's no such thing as a gay florist or baker (even ignoring all the other establishments
that WOULD work with them)?
We watched "42" last night, about Jackie Robinson breaking into the majors. Great movie, btw. It's difficult to see the ignorance and downright nasty way people treat each other. What's even worse is to realize that nothing has really changed. There are people right on this forum, from the way they talk, who would absolutely forbid a black person or a gay person from using a public facility or socializing with them in any capacity. If they thought they could get away with it and if someone else would start, they would absolutely be screaming filthy names and horrible things at blacks and gays and Muslims and anyone else who isn't "them". How we can tell is that they do it on a lesser scale right here in the open on a public forum where they're anonymous for the most part but not really. You see them comment on internet stories all the time.
Quite simply, I hate those people and wish they'd die. Like, really die. Painfully. And I want to watch.
So if non-whites, non-heteros, and non-Christians are a little touchy, I can totally see why they would be. White hetero Christians outnumber them - all of them - so they are one rallying cry away from being, if not lynched then refused service and burnt out of their homes.
And honestly I hate the bigots and racists on here because they've made this a part of my life, where it never was before. No black person or Muslim person or gay person has ever brought bigotry home to me - just you all. You make me ashamed.
Quite simply, I hate those people and wish they'd die. Like, really die. Painfully. And I want to watch.
So if non-whites, non-heteros, and non-Christians are a little touchy, I can totally see why they would be. White hetero Christians outnumber them - all of them - so they are one rallying cry away from being, if not lynched then refused service and burnt out of their homes.
And honestly I hate the bigots and racists on here because they've made this a part of my life, where it never was before. No black person or Muslim person or gay person has ever brought bigotry home to me - just you all. You make me ashamed.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
How about shadow or stealth bigotry? Flipping channels yesterday, I came upon an old favorite title, "The Honeymooners", a movie, in the description said, "Based on the original TV series", turned to it, and found that the entire character cast was black. And one hispanic. Now, I remember Ralph Kramden to be a white guy. Is one a racist and bigot by addressing what is forced reversed discrimination and the inequities that are resultant?
As for the movie, I watched very little to what was an awful attempt, with poor sophomoric acting, to try to make the current generation, maybe, more black aware? Maybe, subconsciously, to make it appear that blacks can be just as ignorant as white folk? Either way, the movie sucked.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
I'm curious as to what "Perfectly Sums Up What “Rights” Mean to Conservatives".
SG_Player1974
New Member
DipStick
Keep Calm and Don't Care!
This forum needs a "like" button.
But since it doesn't have one, I'll just do this:
Dipstick liked this post
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Hijinx
Well-Known Member
Eric Holder once called America a nation of cowards, when it comes to racial discussion.
What happens when Whites discuss race.
We make Vrai ashamed .
Her view is pretty inclusive when she says "You All".
We are not allowed to post of all the killings in the ghetto's on black on black crime.
We are not allowed to say Obama is incompetent. It ok when she says it , but she is ashamed when we say it.
Because we are racist and she isn't.
We are not allowed to point out all of the crimes, the riots, the black community has, nor can we point out that Hispanics are taking jobs from citizens, that they have no business being here if they came illegally, pr that drunken Hispanics are killing people on the roads.
She has no knowledge of our experiences or why we are racist in her mind,, she has judged us, and found us guilty.
And she is ashamed.
I don't consider myself racist, I judge each individual on the way they are, the way they live, and the stand they take.
She won't believe that,, and personally I don't care. I am willing to have a discussion on race, or homosexuals any time.
I know people of both persuasions , and like some of them and dislike others.,
I have homosexuality in my family and a niece who married a black. Most of us will have both in the family before too long.
Some call that progress.
To me Homosexuality is a sickness. I don't hate everyone with Cancer just because I hate Cancer.
I don't hate all blacks , just those who are like a cancer in the community.
I might add that all white hetero Christians are not a rallying cry away from lynching,or burning the homes of Non Christians, Non-hetero's or non whites or anyone else.
Damn Vrai you really got carried away on this post.
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DipStick
Keep Calm and Don't Care!
My question is for GURPS.
You talk all the time about how the blacks and the gays have "Special Rights". Isn't the notion that a Christian business owner can discriminate against gays for religious reasons a "special right"? And you have made statements in the past that gays having equal rights violates your religious freedom. Since you have the right to go to church on Sunday and pray before eating your meals and go to bed, I'm curious, how are your religious rights being taken away?
You talk all the time about how the blacks and the gays have "Special Rights". Isn't the notion that a Christian business owner can discriminate against gays for religious reasons a "special right"? And you have made statements in the past that gays having equal rights violates your religious freedom. Since you have the right to go to church on Sunday and pray before eating your meals and go to bed, I'm curious, how are your religious rights being taken away?
DipStick
Keep Calm and Don't Care!
And, back in the 1950s, blacks weren't regular human beings either.
20 years from now, y'all are going to look ignorant. Like, really ignorant.
PsyOps
Pixelated
If I owned a business, I personally would never turn a customer away; not because my religion told me to, or because I am one color and the other person is another. I loathe the practice of religion dictating such things. I loathe the long-standing ‘tradition’ of white supremacy, black supremacy, any kind of supremacy under any sort of philosophical guise.
That all being said, I think most folks that are for liberty defined under the constitution are people that see these things in the context of how we expect government to address them. We live in a world today where we demand government step in and fix every little thing. Liberty is when we exercise a right up to the point where it harms someone; then we have laws (that already exist) to address that. Refusing to sell a cake to someone does not harm that person. It’s the role of government to implement protections from harm from other; not address what offends us.
I care that they are offended; but only up to where we, as a society need to solve these things and not invite government in to fix it. Once you invite government in, they are not just in, but they will grab more and more. They are doing it with smoking. They are doing it with religion. They are doing it with speech. They are doing it with guns. Taking away these thing away little bits at a time.
Hijinx
Well-Known Member
20 years from now I will be dead and they can call me that ignorant SOB all they like
Names don't hurt me now and they won't hurt me than.
By the way your first sentence is BS.
20 years from now who knows what progress will have been made in sexuality?
Maybe having one wife will be looked at as ignorant by the Muslims who rule our country then.
Or maybe prostitution and sexual slavery such as in Juarez and the Mexican Border towns will be considered ignorant by the Mexicans who rule.
Who knows? While I am here I will have my opinions, and you will have yours.
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I don't understand how reimagining a work of fiction and changing the characters is racism or discrimination? Film makers do it all the time. Ralph Kramden is primarily blue collar, working class, lower income - his ethnicity is immaterial.
Am I misunderstanding your point?
DipStick
Keep Calm and Don't Care!
If I owned a business, I wouldn't turn anyone away because it's a stupid ####ing business practice. Screwing yourself and your investors out of profit because you don't like gay people, it's the stupidest ####ing thing I've ever heard of.
WOW , All joking aside ,this has to be one of if not the best post I think I have ever read on these forums hands down !!!
They already look ignorant. Like, really ignorant.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Thank for pretty much repeating what I said. :shrug:
Hijinx
Well-Known Member
My point is made. Try to have a racial discussion and you are automatically ignorant.