To 2nd Amendment

[Spoiled]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43245

That's a grim view of what will likely happen as the Iranians near completing their first nuclear bomb. Allah Akbar! There is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his Messenger. (that is what we will hear just after the boom).

its allahu akbar... which means something along the lines of "praise God" the same God we (christians, jews, etc...) worship. Allah can be broken into 2 parts

Al which makes the word proper
and ilah which means god

edit: after further looking into that article, im not sure how much credibility i would give it, looks like a very pro-christian news thing...

"Im not arguing that hardcore religious governments arent good, our own history shows us this."

Care to elaborate?

Why was maryland founded? as a catholic refuge... Protestant vs Catholicism was the all-to-common fight going on in Europe, many were killed because of this. Many people were killed for saying the Catholic church was wrong about things (earth being the center of the universe, etc...). Divine Right of Kings? What a wonderful system that was... The Pope crowning kings, having extreme influence on monarchs... Those were the good ol' days!

 

[Hessian]

No...not the same god. Muhammed's psycho visions did not come from our God.
Satan projects himself as an angel of light...a deceiver-this is the Allah.

Next: don't tamper with my spelling: yours needs some serious help and I have refrained from correcting.

Lastly: you still have not explained:
"Im not arguing that hardcore religious governments arent good, our own history shows us this."

Maryland was neither hard core nor successful...come on Liberal: keep digging.

 

[Spoiled]

No...not the same god. Muhamme's psycho visions did not come from our God.
Satan projects himself as an angel of light...a deceiver-this is the Allah.

Next: don't tamper with my spelling: yours needs some serious help and I have refrained from correcting.

Its the same God, Christians, Muslims and Jews who speak Arabic all pray to Allah, I was showing you how the words breakdown means the same thing as God.

edit: How do you have the authority to say "Allah" is Satan, when its a translation? I've taken college level religion classes, and I am taking a class which studies Israel/Palestine.

Lastly: you still have not explained:
"Im not arguing that hardcore religious governments arent good, our own history shows us this."

Maryland was neither hard core nor successful...come on Liberal: keep digging.

I didnt say it was hardcore, I was saying it was made in response to the Protestant intollerance of Catholicism in Europe by the governments. I gave several examples of how our history, pre-US, while still in Europe was less than desirable due to religion and government. That is unless, of course, you were roalty or nobility.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'd like to point out...

we still killed the empire

...that we killed no empire. I'd also like to point out that while you are distinguishing anti-west, our enemies are anti US.

They have absolutely no anger directed towards the UK, France, Germany et al that would be justified by history.

They have tremendous anger directed at us for what amounts to speeding tickets compared to what the euro's have done to them.

 

[Spoiled]

...that we killed no empire. I'd also like to point out that while you are distinguishing anti-west, our enemies are anti US.

They have absolutely no anger directed towards the UK, France, Germany et al that would be justified by history.

They have tremendous anger directed at us for what amounts to speeding tickets compared to what the euro's have done to them.

Why should Iran like us? We supported their old leader and tried getting Iraq to take them over, we werent the nice guys in the cold war either...

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

...let's be jeuvenille about it.

Why should we like them?

Bottom line is they do NO support American style democracy and freedom based on rule of law and basic human rights. Many, many of their people do and many have come here.

Ain't to many 'mericans running around Tehran.

They suck, we suck less.

 

[Spoiled]

...let's be jeuvenille about it.

Why should we like them?

Bottom line is they do NO support American style democracy and freedom based on rule of law and basic human rights. Many, many of their people do and many have come here.

Ain't to many 'mericans running around Tehran.

They suck, we suck less.

Does that mean we over throw their government? Does that mean all muslims are trying to take over the world, force their values on others, trying to kill Americans? I dont think so

 

[Hessian]

Define liberation...

If we were to play with the concept of Liberation...it would help us define the opposite: oppression.
Does Islam "liberate" people? Ie: promote free expression? promote the free exchange of ideas? allow for diverse learning? open schools for all sexes?
host debates? encourage voting? respect for minorities encouraged?

Where does Mohammed proclaim that "the truth will set you free?" Did Mohammed shush his disciples and say "let the little children come unto me?"
(unless they were 14 year old girls?) ----better that a millstone would have been tied around his neck than to let harm befall one of these.

Mohammed was a bloody, vengeful psychopath and bigot, philanderer, butcher. And his followers mirror him well.

As to Spoiled's earlier stand that God = allah.
"I and the Father are one...no man cometh to the Father but by me. I sit at the right hand of the Father..."
These are all Christ's sayings but the distorted Koran (630 ad) demotes Christ to the status of a prophet, denying his prophecies, his resurrection and his relation to God. Thus Mohammed and his Satanic Verses are a poor attempt to mooch in to the faith of the "People of the Book"-when he was rejected as a "prophet" by them, he burned with revenge against them.

Sorry Moh'...they didn't buy your distortions and cultic fanaticsm then...nor do we buy them now. allah is NOT God...never will be; just a figment in a cheap imposter.

 

[Larry Gude]

Spoiled...

Afghanistan had it coming. So did Iraq. Read the Iraq War Resolution and read what your governemnt voted to do.

You wanna blame us for poor relations with everyone who hates us, fine. You advocate the position of Islam as celebrated by millions on 9/11.

I'll take us, including the American Muslims who were murdered here that day.

The comment that sparked your interest was 2a's ascertation that while Christianity is clearly under PC attack here in THE nation that has launched NO holy crusades against anyone, Islam gets a free pass.

You get all torqued out of shape at the mention of Jerry Falwell names and scream 'evil!'. Wouldn't you like to know what kind of teaching goes on the endless supply of Madras's around the region?

Are you comfortable NONE of them are fronts for violence?

Are you satisfied that none of them are polluting childrens minds with hate?

Or, is Falwell and Christianity, the religion that does NOT have a Jihad against you, the only thing you fear?

 

[Spoiled]

Again, as I said before, you are basing your opinion of Islam on the radical minority. Its more fare to compare Mohammed to lets say, Moses. There are plenty of peaceful muslims world wide, the ones in America, and the UK for example. There are other muslims world wide, including ones in the "terrorist breeding grounds" which are infact moderate. There are places in the US where christianity (Catholicism to be exact) are used to teach hate. They arent tollerant of others. Let me take that back, its the society that does not like other people, and it shows in the Catholic schools (you do this: you are going to hell, if someone else does this, they cant just go to confession).


And you are missing the point on the Allah thing, do you speak another language? Gud, God, Allah, Mon Dieu, Gott
All mean the SAME thing, its just LANGUAGE differences. You goto Germany Muslims, Christians, and Jews all pray to Gott... English speaking countries its God... Arab speaking countries its Allah.

 

[hamsterfang]

Deluded, confused, naive, deceived, and generally unaware.
Try those terms instead of spoiled.
Islam brings oppression wherever it dominates, it swears vengeance, creates a line of "Faithful" and infidel that shreads tolerance. It crushes human rights, endorses slavery in the Sudan, stomps out free speech, desacrates historic sites...and impresses a fear deeper than Stalinist Russia.

Wake up.

I'll agree with you that in the past (and unfortunately to this day) Islam has brought with it many of the things that you have mentioned, but that is mainly found in the Middle East, not in America. Oppression, revenge, and hate are not key parts of Islam unless you are taking every word written in the holy script to a ridiculous extreme (like someone taking “an eye for an eye” as “gouge out someone’s eyes if they wrong you”) Personally, I don't consider these terrorists to even practice Islam. I think that they use it as an excuse to create confrontations and oppress people in order to gain political power and wealth. They’re scum who spend their lives manipulating the masses and causing pain and misery so they may live great lives. Fortunately they are not true examples of what a real Muslim is.

 

[ylexot]

Ok, here's what I think...the problem is not religion. The problem is social evolution. The society in the Middle East is stuck in their evolution where Europe was in the Middle Ages...warloards/crusades/etc. This could be changed through education, but that should have been recognized and rectified decades ago. Unfortunately, the people in the Middle East also have very deadly weapons and are working on even worse ones (partially because they hold a valuable resource that more advanced societies will trade for). They also have capabilities to attack their perceived enemies (the US). So, we cannot wait for decades to educate them. We have to act now which is what we are doing.

Sadly, I see Africa as being even lower on the societal evolution scale. I say screw putting money into AIDS health care in Africa. Put it into education. It will have a much better and longer-lasting effect. After all, the problem with AIDS in Africa mostly stems from a lack of education.

 

[Larry Gude]

hamfang...

Personally, I don't consider these terrorists to even practice Islam.

I would argue, strenuously, that they are very much practicing Islam.

They are afraid of their own people straying from the 'word'.

They are afraid of western influence accelerating this exodus from the true way.

We've got libs today in the US who live in a time long ago where our own society punished you socially and professionally, in some areas and some places, for not being devout enough. Perhaps that is still the case here and there but, nowadays, you get attacked for being to devout.

Every time Muslims slipped behind the rest of the world the last 3-400 years there was always a big internal debate;

Some said we must reaffirm the old ways, we've slipped because we've strayed.

Others said we must modernize, we've slipped because we are holding on too tightly to the old ways.

The reality is that the path to the future lay in westernization not modernization, two very, VERY different things.

And people like Osama know it and are fighting what amounts to last ditch efforts to save their faith and their way of life. That makes them dangerous. Very dangerous.

We've never tolerated (for long) the level of religious demands on policy that Islam places on Muslim lands.

That is the BIG difference.

 

[Spoiled]

I would argue, strenuously, that they are very much practicing Islam.

They are afraid of their own people straying from the 'word'.

They are afraid of western influence accelerating this exodus from the true way.

We've got libs today in the US who live in a time long ago where our own society punished you socially and professionally, in some areas and some places, for not being devout enough. Perhaps that is still the case here and there but, nowadays, you get attacked for being to devout.

Every time Muslims slipped behind the rest of the world the last 3-400 years there was always a big internal debate;

Some said we must reaffirm the old ways, we've slipped because we've strayed.

Others said we must modernize, we've slipped because we are holding on too tightly to the old ways.

The reality is that the path to the future lay in westernization not modernization, two very, VERY different things.

And people like Osama know it and are fighting what amounts to last ditch efforts to save their faith and their way of life. That makes them dangerous. Very dangerous.

We've never tolerated (for long) the level of religious demands on policy that Islam places on Muslim lands.

That is the BIG difference.

I dont think that is the case for many practitioners of true Islam (though there are probably a few who feel this just as other religious people feel). It maybe the case of the corrupt dictators that say what they are doing is in the name of Islam.

 

[Tonio]

The reality is that the path to the future lay in westernization not modernization, two very, VERY different things.

Years ago I read an article about a Saudi diplomat speaking to a high-school geography class. He said the Shah of Iran's mistake was to Westernize, not modernize. He explained the difference as modernization meant building a hotel and Westenization being building a hotel with a bar. If he's right, it could be that the average Muslim identifies the West not with democracy but with sin and vice. Do you think that's accurate?

 

[Hessian]

A Few????

Ask the missionary in Indonesia who witnessed the cheering crowds on 9/11.
Ask the news crew in Palestine about the parades of rejoicing on 9/11
Ask the academic in Egypt about the pleasing nods & smiles seen throughout the campuses in the delta on 9/11.

A few? You just don't get it do you? They declared war on us and you still say...well, maybe just a few. Unbelievable.

That perspective would have called the attack on Pearl Harbor a cultural miscue.

 

[Spoiled]

Years ago I read an article about a Saudi diplomat speaking to a high-school geography class. He said the Shah of Iran's mistake was to Westernize, not modernize. He explained the difference as modernization meant building a hotel and Westenization being building a hotel with a bar. If he's right, it could be that the average Muslim identifies the West not with democracy but with sin and vice. Do you think that's accurate?

Yes, I think its accurate.

Ask the missionary in Indonesia who witnessed the cheering crowds on 9/11.
Ask the news crew in Palestine about the parades of rejoicing on 9/11
Ask the academic in Egypt about the pleasing nods & smiles seen throughout the campuses in the delta on 9/11.

A few? You just don't get it do you? They declared war on us and you still say...well, maybe just a few. Unbelievable.

That perspective would have called the attack on Pearl Harbor a cultural miscue.

I still stand next to the fact that its their society and the way it falsely uses religion as an excuse for certain things. I witnessed people who were happy about 9-11 too, IN AMERICA... They were happy we were getting out of school... I think you have something in common with them: you dont like things that are different.

And its not like Pearl Harbor, pearl harbor was state sponsored, and carried out under the order of a nation. The world is changing, the biggest threat isnt a state anymore, its non government organizations.


edit:

Ask the missionary in Indonesia who witnessed the cheering crowds on 9/11. Where in Indonesia? Where the muslim militants are waging war on the governemnt? Not all Indonesian muslims are like that, I would say they are the minority in my own experiences.
Ask the news crew in Palestine about the parades of rejoicing on 9/11.
We all know news people find what they want to, again probably the fundamentalist militants... (Not all Palestinians are that way)
Ask the academic in Egypt about the pleasing nods & smiles seen throughout the campuses in the delta on 9/11.
Which campuses? Ill ask one of my professors who went to school there if she ever saw anything like that.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ton...

If he's right, it could be that the average Muslim identifies the West not with democracy but with sin and vice. Do you think that's accurate?

Hell no it's not accurate.

Look around. Why are so many Muslims in the US?
Why are so few Americans living in Muslim lands?

I'll bet you the 'average' Muslim is a lot like the 'average' American.

You can fill that blank in as to what 'average' means with no help from me.

 

[Larry Gude]

They're called 'liberals'...

I witnessed people who were happy about 9-11 too, IN AMERICA

...and they are convinced that we deserved it.

Any numbers of editorials state that very thing, unequivocably. Not my words, theirs.

 

[Tonio]

Hell no it's not accurate.

Look around. Why are so many Muslims in the US?
Why are so few Americans living in Muslim lands?

I'll bet you the 'average' Muslim is a lot like the 'average' American.

You can fill that blank in as to what 'average' means with no help from me.

I agree with you. I think that the demagogues like Khomeini and Bin Laden want their followers to believe that the West is all about sex and liquor. That's not much different from Sharpton telling people to blame everything on white people. Years ago, Time magazine printed a transcription of one of Khomeini's audiotapes that were circulating in Iran before the fall of the Shah. He blamed the Shah for importing such Western "decadence" as dancing.