Torture...

[NTNG]

I think it was the mob movie " Good Fellas" Joe Pesci did it to some guy in the movie.

 

[Chain729]

...this is where these things go; it has to be perfect or nothing; What if this highly unlikely scenario plays out, huh? Or, what if we stick a needle in some guys eye and pour salt in his wounds, what then, huh? What if we stick him in a wood chipper, huh? This is why we are a nation of lawyers.

Now, if you're mind leads you to those kinds of extremes, what in the world is a piece of paper, some law, going to mean if the government starts sticking peoples heads in vices?

You take a look at some of the common, usual punishments of our Founders day and you look at what the American left is going over today and get back to me on the word context.

I'm confusing ducks and dogs?

1) Then give me a probable context.

2) You said "real torture" not sleep deprivation or the like. I suppose, you should've defined "real torture." I have a dark imagination. Depending on your definition of "real torture" I may end up agreeing with you :shrug:

Actually the vice was a creation after a mandate by the Catholic Church in the middle ages. The church said "To stop the creulty; punishments and torture that are bloody, are hereby banned."

 

[itsbob]

Damn... I thought this thread would be more entertaining.

All jokes aside, I don't agree with torture. If we toture our captives we are no less animals than they are. If we stoop to their level, if we go against what we stand for, than we are nothing more than the powerful hypocrites they make us out to be. Have you seen "The Siege?" Recall the scene where they tortured the guy just to find out that he didn't know anything? Just to find that he was nothing more than a one-time errand boy who was looking to get his daughter's wedding paid for? Would you want that blood on your hands?

That said, I don't agree that what's been reported since we've been over there is torture. And, at the same time, I don't have a problem executing them, drenching them in pig's blood, mutilating the corpses and throwing them in a ditch :shrug:

So your saying, if we know Habib has driven his cab into Downtown NY, and he's planted a nuclear weapon SOMEwhere in Manhattan, we should just sit around a smoke cigarettes with him until we get the "flash-Bang"?

There are different scenarios, and to say yes in all cases and no in all cases is not realistic.. Commanders on the ground at some level have to have the discretion.. Personally, I'd torture the piss out of someone that had information that would save 100 American lives today, let alone a city the size of NY.. If I captured someone that I KNEW had just placed 10 roadside bombs.. the gloves would come off, and I would find out where they are before 100 innocent Iraqui's or 10 Americans get killed. But a normal foot soldier in Sadr's Army? No, give him a cigarette and a coke.. and treat him humanely and feed and care for him..

 

[Larry Gude]

And what did Joe...

I think it was the mob movie " Good Fellas" Joe Pesci did it to some guy in the movie.

...find out?

The correct answer to his question!

 

[Papi4baby]

Torture

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted.
So i guess sleep deprivation, noise, light, water all that stuff counts. I think the most effective type of interrogation is chemical

 

[Larry Gude]

What I am saying...

1) Then give me a probable context.

2) You said "real torture" not sleep deprivation or the like. I suppose, you should've defined "real torture." I have a dark imagination. Depending on your definition of "real torture" I may end up agreeing with you :shrug:

Actually the vice was a creation after a mandate by the Catholic Church in the middle ages. The church said "To stop the creulty; punishments and torture that are bloody, are hereby banned."

...is that, personally, don't think so much of head vices, racks and burning hot coals. If sleep deprivation works, fine. If drugs work, fine. If water boarding works, fine. If we're in a hurry and putting a gun to the head of a guys child works, fine.

You just can't sit there and argue 'no, we can't torture anyone or we're no better than they' and then a bomb goes off killing however many of hundreds or more.

I mean, I don't know what it takes. I do think it's crazy to not do everything you can to get a critical, life saving piece of information out of someone including brutalizing them, if that's the last resort, so bad that they die from it.

 

[Chain729]

...is that, personally, don't think so much of head vices, racks and burning hot coals. If sleep deprivation works, fine. If drugs work, fine. If water boarding works, fine. If we're in a hurry and putting a gun to the head of a guys child works, fine.

You just can't sit there and argue 'no, we can't torture anyone or we're no better than they' and then a bomb goes off killing however many of hundreds or more.

I mean, I don't know what it takes. I do think it's crazy to not do everything you can to get a critical, life saving piece of information out of someone including brutalizing them, if that's the last resort, so bad that they die from it.

Thanks for the explanation. I have no problem with sleep deprivation, lights, music, stripping them of pride, drugs, or even putting a gun to their head or the head of a fellow prisoner. However, waterboarding, cutting, acid, racks, whipping, piercing, etc. I do have a moral problem with. I do draw a line, but that doesn't mean I think we should sit around with our thumbs up our butts till the guy gets bored enough to talk, or dies of old age.

 

[Chain729]

I think it was the mob movie " Good Fellas" Joe Pesci did it to some guy in the movie.

Actually, it was "Casino," but you're welcome for the history lesson.

 

[NTNG]

You're right. I had the Joe Pesci characters confused between "Goodfellas" and "Casino"

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

...do think there are situations where US government sanction and performance of torture are appropriate?


http://www.webster.com/dictionary/torture

Click HERE for a more relevant link.

Plus I say the real question is if ye believe in torturing others then do ye also agree to the others torturing prisoners from our side?

That is what we get, we torture and now they have license to torture American soldiers and citizens.

 

[Larry Gude]

No...

Click HERE for a more relevant link.

Plus I say the real question is if ye believe in torturing others then do ye also agree to the others torturing prisoners from our side?
That is what we get, we torture and now they have license to torture American soldiers and citizens.

...I don't want them torturing our guys. I want to torture their people so we can kill them before they kill us. Then, once we win, we can all live like civilized human beings.

 

[PsyOps]

That is what we get, we torture and now they have license to torture American soldiers and citizens.

Oh I see, the reason they are torturing Americans is because we did it first.

 

[PsyOps]

In an attempt to put this on a more personal level I posed this question before to Forest and JPC, neither of which could provide an answer.

If you had a child that was kidnapped by a group of thugs and you caught one of them that knew where your child was being held. You knew that these kidnappers would rape, torture and eventually murder your child. To what degree will you go to get information from that thug in your custody?

Now multiply this times thousands of lives and interrogators are under the pressure of saving those lives, knowing that if they fail to get vital, fast information thousands will end up dead.

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

...I don't want them torturing our guys. I want to torture their people so we can kill them before they kill us. Then, once we win, we can all live like civilized human beings.

So long as you know it plays with our soldiers lives and that they will torture our persons in retaliation and that we can not have a "civilized" society when it is based in cruelty and injustices, then keep that violent opinion.

I think it destroys yourself since it means that you are not a trust worthy man.

 

[PsyOps]

So long as you know it plays with our soldiers lives and that they will torture our persons in retaliation and that we can not have a "civilized" society when it is based in cruelty and injustices, then keep that violent opinion.

I think it destroys yourself since it means that you are not a trust worthy man.

You don't get it. They will use torture regardless of what we do. And they have to a much larger and more heinous degree.

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

In an attempt to put this on a more personal level I posed this question before to Forest and JPC, neither of which could provide an answer.

If you had a child that was kidnapped by a group of thugs and you caught one of them that knew where your child was being held. You knew that these kidnappers would rape, torture and eventually murder your child. To what degree will you go to get information from that thug in your custody?

Now multiply this times thousands of lives and interrogators are under the pressure of saving those lives, knowing that if they fail to get vital, fast information thousands will end up dead.

I gave answer to this before and he is not being honest saying otherwise. He might not like the answers but he got one.

What he says is immaginary bunk and no one knows what is happening in secret (if child is kidnapped?) and PO is only trying to justify his own cruelty ideals at the expense of some immaginary wrongs.

We need to rise above the petty pretence.

 

[PsyOps]

I gave answer to this before and he is not being honest saying otherwise. He might not like the answers but he got one.

What he says is immaginary bunk and no one knows what is happening in secret (if child is kidnapped?) and PO is only trying to justify his own cruelty ideals at the expense of some immaginary wrongs.

We need to rise above the petty pretence.

Yeah... here was your answer.

The reason you think the child is being tortured is because you yourself are a torturer.

Just like a thief is always afraid that some one will steal from them.

A liar thinks that others are lying too.

The situation you describe is just emotional fear because no one can know for sure what is going on or not going on in secret where the kidnapped person is.

It is just out of control emotions based in out of control fear.

And there are proven principles in this world that have stood the test of time, like torture does not really work and it makes the torturer to deserve whatever they receive.

If we live by the sword then we die by the sword, and the only reason you think the child is being tortured is because that is what you do.

Instead of actually saying what you would do to save your child's life you called me a torturer and liar; and explained it away as an emotional situation and now petty pretences and imaginary. I suggest you go visit Jessica Lunsford’s parents and explain to them their “imaginary” and “petty” rape, torture and death of their child.

Nothing could be more cruel than to have someone take your own child from you and use and abuse that child for their own sick pleasure. It happens all the time and you chalk it up to “imaginary bunk”.

JPC, I am not afraid to say what I would do. I would stop at nothing to get my child back safely. If torturing this thug saves my child’s life then I have sacrifice the guilty for the innocent. If this thug dies at my hands trying to save my child’s life, once again the innocent has been saved at the expense of the guilty. I will sleep sound in my prison cell (just as you have done when you justify your breaking of the law) knowing my child is safe the guilty are not. Not until we have the courage to confront these abject blights in our society will we ever be safe. As long as we have cowards that go out of their way to ensure the guilty are free while the innocent die will we ever be safe. And because of this our world gets more and more dangerous. I hope that makes you sleep good at night.

 

[tirdun]

If you had a child that was kidnapped by a group of thugs and you caught one of them that knew...

Except that torture rarely provides useful and timely information. A person under torture will say anything, true or false, to get you to stop. Even for a moment. In the cases of a zealot/terrorist, they may see the torture as a final step to reward and lie just to thwart you. But as torture is clearly already being used, show me where it has proven useful. What have we learned? What have we gained? Give us something to measure against what we've paid.

"But your child!" you've argued. Make any argument personal and charged enough and you'll get someone to agree to just about anything. Would you murder someone for a dollar? A million dollars? If you knew they would kill someone tomorrow? In ten minutes? Fifty people? If you knew they would kill your wife tomorrow? If they killed your wife yesterday? Would you kill ten people?

Change the crime to anything else, then keep upping the "IF" or adding clauses, dehumanize the victim, add degrees of separation, add levels of pressure until you reach the threshold in which that person will agree. Add timeframes. Add deathtolls. Add deep personal connections. What wouldn't you do, given a convoluted enough list of "if"s.

And finally, what's the point? To ultimately prove that under the right set of circumstances we would all be capable of doing something that we normally might consider terrible?

So we torture for the greater good. What else should we do? Is there anything that is forbidden if the "greater good" is eventually served? What level of payoff is that line drawn at? Who draws that line, and who do you trust to wield this new power?

There are enemies at our gates, to be sure. There are people who hate us and would kill me and mine to serve them and theirs. Is torture the way to find them? I don't believe so. Neither is standing with flowers at the door or expecting everyone else to have the same standards and morals as we do.

 

[RadioPatrol]

By any means necessary. No quarter. No excuses. and keep quiet about it !!!

:fixed:


Bloody well find some folks who are not squeamish and keep there pie holes shut about what is happening ...........

 

[Larry Gude]

Difference of opinion...

So long as you know it plays with our soldiers lives and that they will torture our persons in retaliation and that we can not have a "civilized" society when it is based in cruelty and injustices, then keep that violent opinion.

I think it destroys yourself since it means that you are not a trust worthy man.

...I see us as a civilized society fighting a society that is based on cruelty and injustice. If we're not violent towards violence we lose.

That I wish to see our enemies defeated makes me untrustworthy?