Ukraine / Russia - Actions and Reactions

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member

Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored



“It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand Nato eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.” I wrote those words in 1994, in my book Beyond Nato: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York and Washington. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia”.

What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in Nato. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary to become members, and the US Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion.

Even that first stage provoked Russian opposition and anger. In her memoir, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, concedes that “[Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and his countrymen were strongly opposed to enlargement, seeing it as a strategy for exploiting their vulnerability and moving Europe’s dividing line to the east, leaving them isolated.”

Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer.

George Kennan, the intellectual father of America’s containment policy during the cold war, perceptively warned in a May 1998 New York Times interview about what the Senate’s ratification of Nato’s first round of expansion would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan stated. ”I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member

3 House Republicans voted against a bipartisan resolution to stand 'steadfastly' with the Ukrainian people







The three congressmen have all embraced an isolationist view of foreign policy.

Gosar tweeted "God be with the people of Ukraine" on February 23, but subsequently blamed both President Joe Biden and NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, for Russia's war in the country.

"NATO has no business inviting Ukraine into membership. This is Russia's backyard. Biden failed to recognize this geopolitical reality," Gosar tweeted.

The House resolution emphasizes "that NATO's relationship with Ukraine is a matter only for Ukraine and the 30 NATO allies."
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member

Ukrainian authorities say citizens don't need to declare captured Russian tanks and military equipment for tax purposes



"Have you captured a Russian tank or armored personnel carrier and are worried about how to declare it? Keep calm and continue to defend the Motherland!" a statement from the Ukrainian National Agency on Corruption Prevention seen by Interfax-Ukraine said.

"There is no need to declare the captured Russian tanks and other equipment, because the cost of this ... does not exceed 100 living wages," or 248,100 Ukrainian hryvnia, the agency said, according to Interfax-Ukraine. The sum equates to about $8,300.

On the agency's website, a document dated Monday said the seizure of tanks or equipment would be considered a "manifestation of the unity and cohesion of the Ukrainian people in the fight against invaders" and would not be taxable.

"Thanks to the courage and victory of the defenders of the Ukrainian state, hostile military equipment, weapons, and other armor arrive as scrap. It is impossible to evaluate such objects in accordance with the Law of Ukraine," it said.
 

herb749

Well-Known Member

Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored



“It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand Nato eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.” I wrote those words in 1994, in my book Beyond Nato: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York and Washington. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia”.

What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in Nato. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary to become members, and the US Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion.

Even that first stage provoked Russian opposition and anger. In her memoir, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, concedes that “[Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and his countrymen were strongly opposed to enlargement, seeing it as a strategy for exploiting their vulnerability and moving Europe’s dividing line to the east, leaving them isolated.”

Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer.

George Kennan, the intellectual father of America’s containment policy during the cold war, perceptively warned in a May 1998 New York Times interview about what the Senate’s ratification of Nato’s first round of expansion would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan stated. ”I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”


In all the years of buying Russian oil & gas has the EU invited them to join .?
 

UglyBear

Well-Known Member
They missed the opportunity to make a friend of a foe 20 years ago.
Serious question — what did the West NOT do to make friends with Russia?

They opened the borders, opened their wallets, put zero restrictions — a whole lot of Russians got fabulously wealthy, and vacationed all over the world.
The West set up a whole bunch of NGOs to help Russia transition to democracy and the rule of law. Russians did not want to. What else was the West supposed to do?
 

Kyle

Beloved Misanthrope
PREMO Member
Serious question — what did the West NOT do to make friends with Russia?

They opened the borders, opened their wallets, put zero restrictions — a whole lot of Russians got fabulously wealthy, and vacationed all over the world.
The West set up a whole bunch of NGOs to help Russia transition to democracy and the rule of law. Russians did not want to. What else was the West supposed to do?
There were instances of Russia testing the waters to be a part of the EU and NATO that weren't really considered.

I read somewhere that Putin suggested the idea a few times but felt that Russia shouldn't have to "apply" and be considered for entry, prompting less than enthusiastic responses.

It's been a long time since reading those articles, so my memory isn't fresh but that was the gist.
 

Kyle

Beloved Misanthrope
PREMO Member
Wait til crabbycakes sees the custom T-shirts Kyle is selling. I already got mine. Has "I'm Rootin' For Putin" printed on the front and "Be Glad Its Vlad" on the back. Very tasteful design with a cigarette pocket to keep yr meth in.
The next batch are "Crush'n with Russian" and "Campaign In Ukraine".
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
He's all in.
Seeing the total destruction of the once-beautiful city of Kyiv...seeing the debris covering what were once delightful outdoor cafes alive with customers, places where my daughter would meet with friends and colleagues and often call me to chat after a day at work......

So sad. Ukraine truly is gone and nothing Slow Joe can do to prevent that.
 
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GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I read somewhere that Putin suggested the idea a few times but felt that Russia shouldn't have to "apply" and be considered for entry, prompting less than enthusiastic responses.


yeah this has been mentioned recently .. like the past few days
 

Kyle

Beloved Misanthrope
PREMO Member
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black dog

Free America
Seeing the total destruction of the once-beautiful city of Kyiv...seeing the debris covering what were once delightful outdoor cafes alive with customers, places where my daughter would meet with friends and colleagues and often call me to chat after a day at work......

So sad. Ukraine truly is gone and nothing Slow Joe can do to prevent that.

Yea, memorys of 1983, pressure vacuum.....
Its a sight to see multi story builds with every window in the building blown out or in.
 
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