Viva La France

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
I'm saying they're not our enemies. They are being stereo-typed by the media who only report what French activists shout. Like I said, squeeky wheel gets the grease. If we had a president who knew some diplomacy that might help, but they seem to be in short supply. I haven't seen a decent diplomat since carter, but he had other issues that warrant him not a good president.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
SamSpade said:
Apparently, you're just not getting the point. If we were selling weapons to Israel while the UK was AT WAR with them, that puts us *against* them.

That's why Germany attacked us in WW2 - we were helping their enemies by supplying them with weapons.

This shouldn't be a difficult concept.
Germany went to war with us because we were attacked by thier ally Japan.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Bustem' Down said:
Germany went to war with us because we were attacked by thier ally Japan.
I didn't say why they declared war - I said attacked. They were attacking our shipping long before we went to war - they did it because we were helping their enemies.

Ok, I'm done here - this is driving me crazy.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
I just think that enemy is too strong a word. Not our ally but not an enemy. I don't consider Israel an enemy, but I sure don't consider them and ally.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Bustem' Down said:
I haven't seen a decent diplomat since carter,
Okay, I have to ask:

What did Carter ever do that might earn him the description of "decent diplomat"? :confused: Are you referring to the Camp David Accords, that didn't amount to a hill of beans and got Anwar Sadat assasinated?
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Viva La France 02-01-2005 01:17 PM Some of our dead soldiers have been on the wrong end of those weapons

Hey smart guy, I was one of them. Guess how many American weapons are over there too? Or have you already forgotten our wonderful patriot Ollie North?
 

Railroad

Routinely Derailed
Bustem' Down said:
Viva La France 02-01-2005 01:17 PM Some of our dead soldiers have been on the wrong end of those weapons

Hey smart guy, I was one of them. Guess how many American weapons are over there too? Or have you already forgotten our wonderful patriot Ollie North?
That's strange; you don't ACT dead. :shrug: :biggrin:

(At least physically) :biggrin:
 
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Bruzilla

Guest
Last I checked, Ollie North sold weapons to Iran, not Iraq.

Second, we in the US have to admit that we made the European bed that we're now "sleeping" in. By providing a blanket of security over Europe for the past 59 or so years, we've allowed countries like France, Germany and others to turn into vast bastions of peaceful co-existence types. They've had really nothing to fear for over half a century and it's taken its toll.

Where you can fault the French, Germans, Russians and others - basically everyone who opposed our invasion, is that they've been very willing to deal with a known scumbag to make a buck. As long as the UN sanctions were in place, Hussein didn't have to pay millions of dollars in war reperations to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and he could continue to use the UN Oil For Food program to offer oil futures to his "friends" in various European governments. Also, he was still selling millions of barrels of oil illegally on the black market. Under that arrangement, he didn't have to pay millions that he owed, plus he could buy weapons and support from Europe and have plenty of money to build palaces and live grandly. Over the years the people of Iraq learned to adapt and created their own black markets to meet their needs, albeit on a limited scale.

This was also a great deal for the French, who loaned millions of dollars to Iraq to buy jet fighters from Dassault and other heavy weapons, with these loans being secured by (most likely) Oil For Food futures (I think that will be an interesting finding when the investigations are done). This was one of the prime motivators for French resolve against us... Hussein was personally responsible for the loans, and if he was ousted those loan agreements would become null and void, and the French economy is in bad enough shape as it is. So they ahd to look out for their interests.

Yes, the US supported Hussein with money and turned a blind eye to the Soviets selling him everything under the sun, but that was because Iraq was battling Iran, which to us was a greater evil at the time. The French, Germans, and Russians were dealing with Hussein for one reason - money. Even after the Gulf War and the revelations of all the evils that Hussein had committed, these countries still lined up to make deals that were at the least morally questionable, and at the highest illegal. Maybe you can see these motives as the same, but I can't.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I think people get caught up in terminology and that's what confuses them as to foreign relations.

When we say some country is our "friend", it doesn't mean we sit up all night with them, eating Doritos and sharing secrets. It just means that we have a working relationship with them that is mutually beneficial. It's not lifelong true-blue - the minute the relationship is no longer beneficial, it gets reworked or thrown out. It's not emotional, merely practical.

And while a country's leader might be pro-US, there's no guarantee that the next leader of that country will be. And there's no guarantee that said leader won't stab us in the back if it serves his purpose.

There's no reason to have a "friendship" with France anymore. Their leaders act in direct opposition to US national security and interests - they've sold us out to make a few bucks at the expense of Iraqi lives.

And that's another thing that frosts me: France, Germany, etc are responsible for way more Iraqi lives being lost by participating in the Oil for Food scandal than the US ever dreamed of. Why aren't the libs going crazy on them? Why are they targeting their home country - the country that liberated these people from their murderous dictator instead of keeping him in business?
 

Railroad

Routinely Derailed
vraiblonde said:
I think people get caught up in terminology and that's what confuses them as to foreign relations.

When we say some country is our "friend", it doesn't mean we sit up all night with them, eating Doritos and sharing secrets. It just means that we have a working relationship with them that is mutually beneficial. It's not lifelong true-blue - the minute the relationship is no longer beneficial, it gets reworked or thrown out. It's not emotional, merely practical.

And while a country's leader might be pro-US, there's no guarantee that the next leader of that country will be. And there's no guarantee that said leader won't stab us in the back if it serves his purpose.

There's no reason to have a "friendship" with France anymore. Their leaders act in direct opposition to US national security and interests - they've sold us out to make a few bucks at the expense of Iraqi lives.

And that's another thing that frosts me: France, Germany, etc are responsible for way more Iraqi lives being lost by participating in the Oil for Food scandal than the US ever dreamed of. Why aren't the libs going crazy on them? Why are they targeting their home country - the country that liberated these people from their murderous dictator instead of keeping him in business?
IMHO, they're more interested in bashing conservatives than they are in bashing the real culprits. The real agenda (I think) is to try and damage the Republican image enough to make the Democratic image (unchanged) look better.
 
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Bruzilla

Guest
The modern French have a serious identity issue to contend with as well. They still see themselves as the center of European cultural, leadership, military, and economic affairs even though they've been pretty much out of the picture since the late 1800s. The French have some of the highest tax rates in the World, and most of the money goes directly to support Paris. Paris is the heart and soul to a lot of the French people, and they've spent billions investing in a capital city that few outside of France care about. Disney found that lesson out the hard way.

One of the prime reasons they dropped out of NATO was because they saw themselves as the ones who should call the shots for European defense, not the US. The fact that they were alone in that decision should have told them something. Their continuation of above-ground nuclear testing to show their continued military might, after the rest of the World had concluded that above-ground testing was a no-no, and that nuclear weapons were more of a hinderence to a military than an asset, further showed their "We Don't Get It" mentality.

Outside of agricultural products, weapons, and their 1/3rd stake in Airbus, the French have little to offer the World, and their economy is suffering for it. This has led to them making a lot of national concessions, such as dealing with Hussein and dealing with Libya while French troops were at war with Libyan troops, which call seriously into question their national integrity. The same deal with Germany and Russia. It can be said that these countries did what they had to do in order to get by, but the same can be said for a prostitute or a thief... and are these the types of people you want making moral judgement calls?

I'm very content knowing that what the US has done in the past that some people attack, such as the Iran/Contra affair, the invasion of Iraq, supporting the Mujahadein in Afghanistan and supporting Iraq over Iran, were all done for a greater national and international good. I don't think the same can be said for putting the national economy over decency... ala' France.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
I just think that enemy is too strong of a word. If France is an enemy for selling weapons, then calling Israel an ally both confuses and scares me.
 
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Bruzilla

Guest
Bustem' Down said:
I just think that enemy is too strong of a word. If France is an enemy for selling weapons, then calling Israel an ally both confuses and scares me.

I'll agree with you there. They are definately not an enemy, but they are not an ally either, and they haven't really been an ally all the way back to when France dropped out of NATO. They made the decision to look out for themselves, and that's great. But there are a lot of countries that think good to look out for others, and in that regard France consistently fails the test.
 
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