What annnoys you more?

[vraiblonde]

Kids who are rr's age feel that they know "everything" or at least "a lot" because they have yet to develop the cognitive understanding that everything known or experienced is not everything there is to know or experience.

That's a great statement and truer words were never spoken. Young people are masters of their own little world. What they don't realize is that there's a LOT more out there that they not only aren't masters of, but don't even realize exists.

 

[Larry Gude]

oz...

...care to point out rr's points you agree with?

 

[Oz]

...care to point out rr's points you agree with?

Whoah! I didn't say I agreed with him. I simply said that he did well to point out a young voters perspective, and the reasons behind that point of view.

I've seen kids in this forum basically spew their (parents) party line with no substance to back it up. For a young guy, he did pretty well for himself with that post.

If young people are well thought out at 18, then the experience they gain with age could make then pretty objective voters in future years. I'll take Double-R's posts any day, before some of these kids whose messages here read like a left wing editorial.

 

[Larry Gude]

Nice save Oz!

Double R is WAY ahead of me at his age and I respect him.

That said...

(see coming post)

 

[Larry Gude]

rr...

I learned more in my youth from people who were honest with me, blunt and uncomfortable as it may have been on many, many occaisions, than I ever did with someone who was worried about my feelings or were indulgent of my youthful enthusiasm.

I'm hard on you, frankly, as a compliment.

You may be, and probably are, way more advanced of a thinker than I was at your age. I think that's great if you are truly thinking and learning but, based on our debates, I don't see you learning a whole hell of a lot.

You retort says:

What the greatest asset of younger voters, however, is that have idealism and passion, which I value much more highly than experience.

Idealism and passion is what you have before you have experience. What you are saying, without meaning to, is 'give me someone stupid but loyal to the cause over someone who will question authority.' aka Cannon fodder.

Also:

Yes, 18-24 year olds lack the same degree of experience that you have, but they have their own experiences to bring into the ballot box.

Which is what concerns me.

Furthermore, your statement that younger people don't vote because they are smart enough to know that they are not informed is condescending and baseless.

As oppossed to why you think they don't vote, that they think government has no effect on their lives? Wow.


I think vrai covered the rest.

 

[rraley]

Some things to address...

First off, for vraiblonde...

Young people don't have ANY experiences that their older counterparts don't have. You say "paying for college" and "getting their first job" like nobody over 25 has ever done that.

I do not mean to suggest that 40 year olds have not had that experience. What I am saying is that 40 year olds went through these experiences in very different times. When your generation was paying for college, finding their first job, etc. close to 20 years ago, Ronald Reagan was president, there was a Democratic Congress, the Cold War was still hot, and the technology sector had yet to explode. When your generation was young, college was good, but not required. Today, college most certainly is required for job advancement and it is getting to the point where higher-level degrees are becoming necessary. Vrai, when your generation went through these experiences there were different dynamics, different policies, and different mindsets. Just because you went through a certain process back in the 1980s does not mean that is still occuring today.


Secondly...

Experience is WAY more valuable than idealism and passion. You can be as idealistic and passionate as you want, but it takes experience and wisdom to run a country. Young people say "We have new ideas" but you don't, not really

For this, I look back to history, especially the 1950s and 1960s when the civil rights movement started. The driving force behind that movement was young people, who pushed this nation to throw away the old system of segregation and accept the new, radical idea that blacks and whites are equal. It was 4 young college students who staged the first sit-in; it was young college students who served as "freedom riders"; it was young people who marched with Martin Luther King, Jr. to Selma, Alabama. In this case, was idealism more valuable than experience? I believe that it was.

Now I do not wish to debate your statement about experience being more valuable than idealism and passion...what I do want to state, however, is that for the American electorate to be truly diverse of thought and outlook, both dynamics should be valuable and welcomed.

People between those two age groups take a look at the taxes being taken out of their paychecks and go "Bullshit!!!"

You know, young people receive paychecks too. And you know what, they see the taxes that get taken out of it for Social Security, Medicare, and in some instances, union dues. Now, college kids who have the help of their parents, do not have the same tax-paying experience as all of you, but you know what, many people in this nation, young and old alike, are more than happy to pay their taxes and are more than happy if that tax money goes to programs that cover the Health Care of all Americans, etc.

Now, Mr. Gude, there is only one point that you make that I want to call you on.

I think that's great if you are truly thinking and learning but, based on our debates, I don't see you learning a whole hell of a lot.

I hope that I'm reading into this statement, and if I am, correct me if I am wrong. But I get the impression from this that I am only "learning," if I fully accept your arguments and change my own mind (or flip-flop as Republicans like to call it right now ) because of your "experience" and your own judgement.

These arguments just seem condescending and overly critical of young people. I mean, do you believe that a solider in Iraq, whose average age is in the 20s, has no clue about the state of our nation or foreign policy? I mean, do you believe that a college student who has to face the harsh realities of a poor job market (or the benefits of a good one), doesn't understand how our nation's economy is functioning? Do you believe, that in one year, I should be able to die for my country on the battlefield, yet not be capable of determining who our leaders should be for the next four years? Seriously, I think that the two of you know better than this, and I hope that your opinion of us uninformed, unexperienced youngsters improves.

 

[Oz]

 

[vraiblonde]

One of the things I like most about young people is watching them grow up and realize they aren't the be-all end-all of the universe.

What I am saying is that 40 year olds went through these experiences in very different times.

• We had a President saying that we were in danger from a foreign country.
• We had protestors who took over streets, buildings and whole cities to voice their displeasure.
• We were very divided as a country over our national security and what to do about it. There were some who didn't even feel the Soviets were a threat, that Ray-gun was the threat and was just trying to flex his muscles.
• There was concern over the dispartiy between the rich and the poor, with the most of us being middle-class, didn't know anyone personally who was either, and wondering what to think.
• There was stress between the people who thought our pop culture (songs, movies, etc) were too violent and sexual, and the people who thought those folks were just a bunch of repressed Victorians.
• Drugs were rampant and easily obtainable.
• College kids were nationally depressed because they thought they'd land a big money job the second they got their diploma and were surprised to find that employers weren't as impressed with them as they were with themselves.
• Mount St. Helens was in the news.
• So was Michael Jackson
• There were all kinds of new technologies, designed to help people live longer and communicate more effectively.

Any of this sounding familiar to you? The words may change but the song remains the same.

It was 4 young college students who staged the first sit-in; it was young college students who served as "freedom riders"; it was young people who marched with Martin Luther King, Jr. to Selma, Alabama.

It was also young people who threw rocks and yelled slurs at the Little Rock Nine. It was a young person who killed Matthew Shepard. The Manson girls were all in their teens and early 20s. One of the guys that dragged James Byrd to death was 25. What's your point?

Idealism is what gets things started, but experience is what makes it work. And young people don't have a lock on idealism BUT old folks like me definitely have the lock on experience.

many people in this nation, young and old alike, are more than happy to pay their taxes and are more than happy if that tax money goes to programs that cover the Health Care of all Americans, etc.

That's fine but they want to pay for it with MY money. And Socialized medicine isn't working out so well in other countries - people are getting substandard care and taxes are through the roof. We complain about HMOs in this country, and now there's a segment that wants to turn health care COMLETELY over to a bureaucracy??? What kind of sense does that make?

And there's your analogy:

"Idealism" says all people should get the same level of health care and, if our tax dollars pay for it, it will be free for everyone.

"Experience" knows damn well that that's not what will happen because it's never happened that way in any other country that's tried it.

"Idealism" feels sorry for black people who sit in ghettos with no job, smoking on their crackpipe and popping out future felons.

"Experience" says that if some immigrant can stow away on a boat to get to America, without knowing a word of English, yet still manage to find a job and raise a family and have a good life, some black guy who was born here should certainly be able to do the same.

"Idealism" says, "We must DO something!"

"Experience" realizes that you can't help people who won't help themselves. And, PS, the more you give them, the less motivated they ARE to help themselves because...why should they?

 

[vraiblonde]

And one more:

When I was a kid, they used to call liberals "Hippies". Now they call them "Democrats".

 

[vraiblonde]

I lied. One more:

Today, college most certainly is required for job advancement and it is getting to the point where higher-level degrees are becoming necessary.

This just shows how tiny your worldview is. If you think every needs to, or even should, go to college and get advanced degrees, I hope you're also prepared to serve yourself at a restaurant, take your trash to the dump, deliver your own mail and fix your own car when it breaks down.

I work with business owners and most of them have never set foot in a college, yet they are very successful and productive. You do not need a college degree to succeed in life and make a pisspot of money.

Bill Gates was a dropout - need I say more?

 

[Ken King]

I lied. One more:


This just shows how tiny your worldview is. If you think every needs to, or even should, go to college and get advanced degrees, I hope you're also prepared to serve yourself at a restaurant, take your trash to the dump, deliver your own mail and fix your own car when it breaks down.

I work with business owners and most of them have never set foot in a college, yet they are very successful and productive. You do not need a college degree to succeed in life and make a pisspot of money.

Bill Gates was a dropout - need I say more?

And Michael Moore dropped in to a few colleges and look at the money that clown makes without the sheepskin.

 

[sunflower]

You do not need a college degree to succeed in life and make a pisspot of money.

Bill Gates was a dropout - need I say more?

 

[Bruzilla]

One of the things I like most about young people is watching them grow up and realize they aren't the be-all end-all of the universe.

• We had a President saying that we were in danger from a foreign country.
• We had protestors who took over streets, buildings and whole cities to voice their displeasure.
• We were very divided as a country over our national security and what to do about it. There were some who didn't even feel the Soviets were a threat, that Ray-gun was the threat and was just trying to flex his muscles.
• There was concern over the dispartiy between the rich and the poor, with the most of us being middle-class, didn't know anyone personally who was either, and wondering what to think.
• There was stress between the people who thought our pop culture (songs, movies, etc) were too violent and sexual, and the people who thought those folks were just a bunch of repressed Victorians.
• Drugs were rampant and easily obtainable.
• College kids were nationally depressed because they thought they'd land a big money job the second they got their diploma and were surprised to find that employers weren't as impressed with them as they were with themselves.
• Mount St. Helens was in the news.
• So was Michael Jackson
• There were all kinds of new technologies, designed to help people live longer and communicate more effectively.

Any of this sounding familiar to you? The words may change but the song remains the same.


It was also young people who threw rocks and yelled slurs at the Little Rock Nine. It was a young person who killed Matthew Shepard. The Manson girls were all in their teens and early 20s. One of the guys that dragged James Byrd to death was 25. What's your point?

Idealism is what gets things started, but experience is what makes it work. And young people don't have a lock on idealism BUT old folks like me definitely have the lock on experience.


That's fine but they want to pay for it with MY money. And Socialized medicine isn't working out so well in other countries - people are getting substandard care and taxes are through the roof. We complain about HMOs in this country, and now there's a segment that wants to turn health care COMLETELY over to a bureaucracy??? What kind of sense does that make?

And there's your analogy:

"Idealism" says all people should get the same level of health care and, if our tax dollars pay for it, it will be free for everyone.

"Experience" knows damn well that that's not what will happen because it's never happened that way in any other country that's tried it.

"Idealism" feels sorry for black people who sit in ghettos with no job, smoking on their crackpipe and popping out future felons.

"Experience" says that if some immigrant can stow away on a boat to get to America, without knowing a word of English, yet still manage to find a job and raise a family and have a good life, some black guy who was born here should certainly be able to do the same.

"Idealism" says, "We must DO something!"

"Experience" realizes that you can't help people who won't help themselves. And, PS, the more you give them, the less motivated they ARE to help themselves because...why should they?

Good points Vrais, but you might as well have made them in Swahili. You an rr just don't share a common reference.

 

[Larry Gude]

rr...

this that I am only "learning," if I fully accept your arguments and change my own mind

In the simplest terms, no.

You, or I for that matter, need not 'fully accept' one anothers arguments in order to learn something that MAY lead to a change of mind or, more likely, a change in how important we may have viewed a given issue.

You and I have debated a number of issues and I enjoyed it thoroughly. I had you at a severe disadvantage because I've had 25 some odd years to hear arguments about all sorts of issues from progressive tax rates to the environment to foreign policy and I've seen the results of five US Presidents and heard the partisan battles that lead to the actions that they did or did not take.

You've seen a relative snap shot of how time has treated your viewpoint on any given issue.

Tell you what. Do me a favor and read, as I'm sure you already have, in the Posts Outlook today, front page, Jane Eisner "No Kidding" and let's chat some more.

Very timely, huh?

 

[Bruzilla]

Well... when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I like to admit it. rraley is right. These is a difference between the current generation and mine. I didn't really understand that until I watched 60 Minutes last night. They were talking about the current generations of kids have been brought up around a spirit of teamwork vice individual goals; on the feeling that everyone is a winner and any accomplishment is to be lauded; and that fairness is of utmost importance.

This PhD that they had on the show was talking about why so many "kids" today are failing at their higher academic and employment efforts. He said it's because they have no idea of what the World is really like. They think that working as a group is better than personal initiative, yet initiative is what gets you noticed and advanced. They think that every little acoomplishment deserves an award of some kind. They think that playing fair is better than playing to win. And in the end thy're losing across the board.

Yes Vrai... we grew up without super shoes, pocket calculators, or PCs. But at least we were taught how to survive in the world after high school.