Why can't we use torture?
- Thread starter forestal
- Start date
soul4sale
New Member
No, you need to specify, somewhere in this heroic wet dream of yours whether you're going to turn this into some kind of crippled metaphor for the terror war, where we're dealing with religious zealots who can withstand a spectacular amount of pain and spew an even more spectacular amount of made up crap to waste our time. Remember, once they check out, they go to a heaven filled with tight snatch (or fruit, depending on your translation).
The old "ticking time bomb" scenario is great for torture porn TV shows, but it's a useless academic jerkoff when it comes to developing a long-term geopolitical strategy for dealing with international terrorists. And, despite the drunken redneck, bring-'em-on assertions being spouted in here, we DO need the moral high ground if we're going to win this.
R
RadioPatrol
Guest
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Not...
...really. I've been proud of America since I knew what the word meant. We've done what we've done, without fail, in support of the broader context of freedom and liberty.
...really. I've been proud of America since I knew what the word meant. We've done what we've done, without fail, in support of the broader context of freedom and liberty.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
soul...
...torture is not a strategy. It is a tactic, just like using a tank to blow up a house when when troops meet resistance too great for a couple of men.
It's a bigger hammer when a tough nail is come across. It is a stronger solvent when normal interrogation and persuasion don't work.
As an analogy, stridently pro abortion folks decry talk of partial birth abortion on the grounds that it is only done a few 100 times a year whereas we perform over a million a year total. Torture is rarely used because it's not necessary. For the most part.
It is beyond laughable to argue that a nation, the beacon for freedom and justice around the world, must be perfect in anything, especially in dealing with our enemies who, like it or not, at the end of the day are the antithesis of freedom and justice.
We do not need the moral high ground; we are the moral high ground. From it, we need to kill and destroy our enemies. It is fine to have the debate and the US does not 'torture' in the context of viciously abusing human beings. It is a far cry from making me feel like I am drowning, water boarding, from smashing my toes with a hammer, using jumper cables on me, burning me and so on and so forth.
The 'ticking bomb' metaphor is not fantasy. Assume, for a moment, that the FBI, who were on the trail of the 19 and would have very likely stopped them had we not such tender sensibilities as to what justice actually is, had gotten permission to hack Atta's laptop on 9/10/01 and found, through investigating it, that something horrible was planned for 9/11. They already knew who some of his comrades were. Assume the FBI tracked one of them down early on the morning of the 11th.
Now what? Ask as we might, he won't talk. Now what? You've pieced together enough to know it has something to do with planes, but not when and where, other than soon. The clock is, literally, ticking. Now what? Is it poison? A bomb? Remote detonation? A shoulder fired missile? Now what? Tic, tic, tic...now what?
John McCain was just another pilot. He was beaten and abused not for any reason that was going to stop one bomb from falling.
I appreciate, deeply, sentiments and concerns of people like you, my fellow citizens and, hopefully, you appreciate mine on whatever issue I think is a big, moral, high ground issue. We make one another better through argument and debate. We make a better country with better ideas and, hopefully, it leads to a nation that doesn't torture out of viciousness or hate. Hopefully, leads to a nation strong enough to hardly ever need to be that desperate. And, hopefully, it leads to a nation that is smart enough to know that sometimes, it may be a good idea to scare somebody into talking.
We have a man who was savagely abused, real torture, for years, and he is running for president of the United States of America. I'd like to think that someone who had a little water dripped up their nose can get over it as well.
...torture is not a strategy. It is a tactic, just like using a tank to blow up a house when when troops meet resistance too great for a couple of men.
It's a bigger hammer when a tough nail is come across. It is a stronger solvent when normal interrogation and persuasion don't work.
As an analogy, stridently pro abortion folks decry talk of partial birth abortion on the grounds that it is only done a few 100 times a year whereas we perform over a million a year total. Torture is rarely used because it's not necessary. For the most part.
It is beyond laughable to argue that a nation, the beacon for freedom and justice around the world, must be perfect in anything, especially in dealing with our enemies who, like it or not, at the end of the day are the antithesis of freedom and justice.
We do not need the moral high ground; we are the moral high ground. From it, we need to kill and destroy our enemies. It is fine to have the debate and the US does not 'torture' in the context of viciously abusing human beings. It is a far cry from making me feel like I am drowning, water boarding, from smashing my toes with a hammer, using jumper cables on me, burning me and so on and so forth.
The 'ticking bomb' metaphor is not fantasy. Assume, for a moment, that the FBI, who were on the trail of the 19 and would have very likely stopped them had we not such tender sensibilities as to what justice actually is, had gotten permission to hack Atta's laptop on 9/10/01 and found, through investigating it, that something horrible was planned for 9/11. They already knew who some of his comrades were. Assume the FBI tracked one of them down early on the morning of the 11th.
Now what? Ask as we might, he won't talk. Now what? You've pieced together enough to know it has something to do with planes, but not when and where, other than soon. The clock is, literally, ticking. Now what? Is it poison? A bomb? Remote detonation? A shoulder fired missile? Now what? Tic, tic, tic...now what?
John McCain was just another pilot. He was beaten and abused not for any reason that was going to stop one bomb from falling.
I appreciate, deeply, sentiments and concerns of people like you, my fellow citizens and, hopefully, you appreciate mine on whatever issue I think is a big, moral, high ground issue. We make one another better through argument and debate. We make a better country with better ideas and, hopefully, it leads to a nation that doesn't torture out of viciousness or hate. Hopefully, leads to a nation strong enough to hardly ever need to be that desperate. And, hopefully, it leads to a nation that is smart enough to know that sometimes, it may be a good idea to scare somebody into talking.
We have a man who was savagely abused, real torture, for years, and he is running for president of the United States of America. I'd like to think that someone who had a little water dripped up their nose can get over it as well.
Baja28
Obama destroyed America
You take the moral high ground over the screams of your daughter, sister, wife etc....
I'll take the "torture them to a slow death" approach to free your daughter, sister, wife etc....
Then you can thank me for having the balls that you don't.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Well, okay. I suppose we’ll just serve them up tea and baklava and hope for the best. In the meantime people die. I guess you’re okay with that “wet dream”. Because it’s not mine it’s the enemy; which you obvious don’t seem to have a clue we have: AN ENEMY THAT WANTS US DEAD. I know that’s getting to be a little cliché but it’s still the truth. You seem to have gone the way of Obama… pull us all back and sing “What the world needs now is love sweet love…” and hope that wins over their hearts.
Well, you seem to have the solution. What is it?
R
RadioPatrol
Guest
forestal
I'm the Boss of Me
really? they beat the nazis on the eastern front, kicked us out of vietnam and korea...
forestal
I'm the Boss of Me
actually some of our victims have died..
At least when we tortured them we kept them alive and treated them better then any world prison, since a$$es like you have issues with a naked dog pile or two we now turn them over to third party countries who don't listen to idiots like you and do as they please without fear of retribution so regardless, we still torture...
PsyOps
Pixelated
Really? Who?
PsyOps
Pixelated
Your sense of history is baffling. THEY (the Russians) were losing to the Nazis. Germany had reached all the way to Moscow before the Russians were able to push them back. And this was mostly due to the Germans having to fight on multiple and opposing fronts and US involvement. And the last I checked we were still in Korea. Have you ever heard of a country called South Korea? But, I guess if you want to consider 1 out of 3 making you right then go ahead, have a party in your name.
And to put an opposing spin on your "they beat" rhetoric... They lost the Cold War.
ocean733
New Member
Baja28
Obama destroyed America
You beat me to it.... this bufoon is clueless.
Go G-Men
New Member
Explain why we need this moral high ground to win? Is it because the UN won't respect us? Or maybe France will be upset with us?
The bottom line is that these terrorist are not combatants and they are not signers of the Geneva Convention and therefore they are provided no such protections.
T
toppick08
Guest
soul4sale
New Member
I quoted this out of order, because it's the first time I've ever read something like this on this message board. Kudos to you, sir.
No, it's more like flooding the metaphorical house with nerve gas. I find the "it's just another tool" line to be dangerously disingenuous, but people keep falling for it. Nuclear weapons are just another tool too. The point is whether the tool fits the job. I can use a sledgehammer to install a lightbulb, but the resulting damage kind of defeats the original goal, much like a torture policy undermines our broader strategic goal.
And trying to define torture down by comparing it to frat hazing just greases the slippery slope. If this is indeed just harmless "water dripping," then our interrgators need to have it done to them before they are allowed to do it to someone else, just as cops have to be shocked with tasers before then can carry them. However, I further propose that the interrogators' license to torture in this manner be sunsetted every few years, so that they have to undergo the process again and have their memories refreshed. Let's see how many people would sign up to do the job then.
Wow. That is some kind of arrogant, whether you meant it that way or not. Do you fathom how much debt we're in? Do you fathom how much foreign oil it takes to keep our economy, not just humming, but out of a yawning hole of a collapsing abyss? Do you understand that the dicey policies we've undertaken to keep that economy going gave birth to this Terror War business in the first place? Do you comprehend that we are waging war with Chinese money? Do you know just how intertwined and dependent your way of life is with those of the countries that sell to and lend to us?
We are no default moral high ground. The moment passed decades ago when we sold our manufacturing sector overseas. Now, we are hardly free to operate as we best see fit. We are compromised and intertwined and dependent. We do not make our own reality. Yet, people like you insist on holding on to that bulletproof sense of entitlement.
And yet, when pressed, even you must make up a highly specific hypothetical situation in order to justify it. The FBI's problem was not their "tender sensibilities" (which also happen to be enshrined in the Constitution, but whatever), but the same spectacular mess of bureaucratic infighting a territorial nonsense prevelent in most federal agencies.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Ok...
There is a time and a place for EVERYTHING, including nuclear weapons. We do NOT torture. We stress, we simulate drowning, we scare the hell out of people. The ONLY reason there is any threat at all to US national security as regards 'torture' is if WE chase our own tail, arguing amongst ourselves, that procedures that are, clearly, not a big deal, are a big deal.
We agree it's a tool. We very much disagree what kind of tool it is. A US army captain in Iraq, very early on, stuck a pistol in the face of a captive, after some of his guys got blown up, and demanded to know, right now, where other booby traps were upon clear threat of death. He got in all kinds of trouble. He also saved his people. I think that an entirely appropriate battlefield tactic given the time, place and circumstance.
There is a time and a place for EVERYTHING, including nuclear weapons. We do NOT torture. We stress, we simulate drowning, we scare the hell out of people. The ONLY reason there is any threat at all to US national security as regards 'torture' is if WE chase our own tail, arguing amongst ourselves, that procedures that are, clearly, not a big deal, are a big deal.
We agree it's a tool. We very much disagree what kind of tool it is. A US army captain in Iraq, very early on, stuck a pistol in the face of a captive, after some of his guys got blown up, and demanded to know, right now, where other booby traps were upon clear threat of death. He got in all kinds of trouble. He also saved his people. I think that an entirely appropriate battlefield tactic given the time, place and circumstance.
PsyOps
Pixelated
You are making the analogy of installing a light bulb to defending a nation? Interesting! How do you apply this thinking to Japan when they never used a nuke against us yet we (even today) feel justified in using it against them (well, except the most extreme contrarians) to end the war?
Try to answer this question honestly… If you knew that a “tortured” captive gave information (as a result of the torture) about a nuke about to go off in NYC and, as a result we were able to stop it from happening – tens of thousands of lives were saved – is torture worth the price of life saved?