Why We Are Still Arguing About Darwin

[Lugnut]

By what standard? Crime is up significantly, especially violent crimes. Middle Eastern women are routinely abused by our standards. Asian women and children are still grossly abused routinely. What do you base your statement that people are treated better on?An ABC news poll conducted in 2002. Granted, the numbers may have changed slightly, and certainly this poll of a few thousand was a smaller cross section than the census. I don't see a huge difference conceptually between upper 70s and lower 80s when we're talking 300,000,000 people. Let's split the difference and say "around 80%".Including the census, I agree. There are many idiots out there that say things different than the truth for no real reason.

By ANY standard. You think crime is HIGHER now than it was a couple hundred years ago?! Shoot, even in this country there was no real organized police force (and thereore little deterrent for criminals) until the 1800's if I recall correctly.

Do you think middle eastern women had a BETTER life 50 years go? 150 years ago? How about American women? Were they better off 50 years ago? 100? Hell they couldn't even VOTE in this country until 1920!

Yes horrible things still happen all around the world. But as a whole people ARE better off now than at any other time in history. And conditions are steadily improving. With each generation individuals have more right's, more prosperity, higher standard of living, more education, etc.

And the world IS more secular now than at any other time in history.

 

[This_person]

By ANY standard. You think crime is HIGHER now than it was a couple hundred years ago?! Shoot, even in this country there was no real organized police force (and thereore little deterrent for criminals) until the 1800's if I recall correctly.

Do you think middle eastern women had a BETTER life 50 years go? 150 years ago? How about American women? Were they better off 50 years ago? 100? Hell they couldn't even VOTE in this country until 1920!

Yes horrible things still happen all around the world. But as a whole people ARE better off now than at any other time in history. And conditions are steadily improving. With each generation individuals have more right's, more prosperity, higher standard of living, more education, etc.

And the world IS more secular now than at any other time in history.

While I agree that American women have more rights than 100 years ago (who could argue that? ), I disagree on the crime. It's gone up, and gotten more violent and with less regard for the people it hurts. Especially in the last 50 years.

Higher standards of living simply means more technological advances. More financial prosperity leads to the rest of what you say. But, a better educated society is not turning out to be a better behaved society. And, I agree, the world is more secular now than at any other modern time. I think that's why the crime is so much more violent, with less regard for how someone gets hurt.

 

[Novus Collectus]

While I agree that American women have more rights than 100 years ago (who could argue that? ), I disagree on the crime. It's gone up, and gotten more violent and with less regard for the people it hurts. Especially in the last 50 years.

Higher standards of living simply means more technological advances. More financial prosperity leads to the rest of what you say. But, a better educated society is not turning out to be a better behaved society. And, I agree, the world is more secular now than at any other modern time. I think that's why the crime is so much more violent, with less regard for how someone gets hurt.

Miilions of now dead slaves and Native Americans would sorely disagree with your impression.

Your perceptions are terribly skewed. American society was very violent 150 years ago and if we compare today with the 1930s we are a whole lot less violent. The murder rate in 1933 was almost double what it is today. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/hmrt.htm

Also if you were a "black" person living in the South before 1940, forget about getting the police to charge the white men for raping you or beating you to a pulp.
Also child brutality laws back 100 years ago were non-existent.
Also, spousal abuse was actually legal. The only recourse a woman had in Victorian times was divorce.....if the beatings were brutal enough.
Also, rape of a spouse was even legal in many states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points,_Manhattan#Crime

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/bath/explosions_4.html

 

[Lugnut]

I disagree on the crime. It's gone up, and gotten more violent and with less regard for the people it hurts. Especially in the last 50 years.

But, a better educated society is not turning out to be a better behaved society.

And, I agree, the world is more secular now than at any other modern time. I think that's why the crime is so much more violent, with less regard for how someone gets hurt.

I would take any American inner city today, over living in medieval europe!

I'll grant that my arguments on this topic come from things I've read quite some time ago. While I can't recall specific instances (and don't have any of those books at hand right now) I DISTINCTLY remember being amazed by the sheer violence of every day life over the past few centurys in western history. One of the main points of the prof, was the steady REDUCTION in violence in western society over time.

And all this while the same society slowly becomes more secular?

:shrug: Agree to disagree?

 

[This_person]

Miilions of now dead slaves and Native Americans would sorely disagree with your impression.

Your perceptions are terribly skewed. American society was very violent 150 years ago and if we compare today with the 1930s we are a whole lot less violent. The murder rate in 1933 was almost double what it is today. Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends

And, using your source, it was 1/6 what it is now in 1900. Your shows it goes up and down, but was significantly lower in the 1950's (2/3 of now), and relatively non-existant 100 years ago compared to now. And, when was society least demonstrating it's moral tone? Late 20's early 30's (one of the peaks in the last 100 years), and the late 60's began the current rise. Whenever we've left the morals of our religion for more secular pursuits, we see a climb in the numbers. Note, when Reagan was elected and the country was briefly on a moral "high", there was a dip in the rate. You're cherry picking your data.

Also if you were a "black" person living in the South before 1940, forget about getting the police to charge the white men for raping you or beating you to a pulp.

A tragic time, for sure. We certainly don't have good numbers for how much that could have actually happened then, for sure. I certainly don't dispute that it did, there's more than sufficient anectdotal evidence it occurred.

Also child brutality laws back 100 years ago were non-existent.
Also, spousal abuse was actually legal. The only recourse a woman had in Victorian times was divorce.....if the beatings were brutal enough.
Also, rape of a spouse was even legal in many states.

So, the laws changed. But, how much did that actually occur?

We discuss abortion laws because of the 1% of abortions that come from rapes and/or incest. Which of these laws that changed were really necessary, and which are like the abortion laws?

 

[This_person]

:shrug: Agree to disagree?

Fair enough!

 

[Novus Collectus]

And, using your source, it was 1/6 what it is now in 1900. Your shows it goes up and down, but was significantly lower in the 1950's (2/3 of now), and relatively non-existant 100 years ago compared to now.

Non-sequitor because it disproves your statement either way. Also the murder rate was low in 1900, but society was very violent before then as well as after then.

And, when was society least demonstrating it's moral tone? Late 20's early 30's (one of the peaks in the last 100 years), and the late 60's began the current rise. Whenever we've left the morals of our religion for more secular pursuits, we see a climb in the numbers. Note, when Reagan was elected and the country was briefly on a moral "high", there was a dip in the rate.

Reagan eh? What, Reagan stopped being moral after a few years or something? "After 1985, rates increased again peaking in 1991 at 10.5 per 100,000." http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/d_hmrt.htm
I am sure you are going to come back with something like "but oh, that was the year the movie 'Debbie Does Dallas III' came out and that led to a moral decline again". If Reagan's election caused a moral "high" and a decrease in violent crime, then his re-election caused a moral decline and an increase in violence. YOu cannot credibly argue one and ignore the other for the argument you are trying to make....that would be "cherrypicking your data" (your words)
THe murder rate today is way lower than during any year under Reagan. Unless you argue that we have become a more moral society in the past ten or fifteen years in spite of "the world is more secular now than at any other modern time" (your words again), then your entire position is erroneous.

 

[Xaquin44]

It only looks worse now because we have TV/Radio/Interwebs at our finger tips.

 

[This_person]

Non-sequitor because it disproves your statement either way. Also the murder rate was low in 1900, but society was very violent before then as well as after then.

Actually, it tends to prove my thought that we're more violent now than 100 years ago. While the rate varied, it remained at least 4 times higher than the turn of the last century. The original discussion on old crimes was 100 years ago vs. now.

The society may have been violent, but not as violent, IMO. The vast majority of people were horrified by concepts such as mothers murdering their own children, people beating each other over shoes, people being gunned down for liking one coast over the other, etc., etc. Drugs were legal, alcohol was legal, and people didn't fight over nothing as much as now. Yes, there was racial bigotry and idiotic actions associated with that, but I just don't think it was as rough as now.

Reagan eh? What, Reagan stopped being moral after a few years or something? "After 1985, rates increased again peaking in 1991 at 10.5 per 100,000." Description of homicide rates since 1900
I am sure you are going to come back with something like "but oh, that was the year the movie 'Debbie Does Dallas III' came out and that led to a moral decline again". If Reagan's election caused a moral "high" and a decrease in violent crime, then his re-election caused a moral decline and an increase in violence. YOu cannot credibly argue one and ignore the other for the argument you are trying to make....that would be "cherrypicking your data" (your words)
THe murder rate today is way lower than during any year under Reagan. Unless you argue that we have become a more moral society in the past ten or fifteen years in spite of "the world is more secular now than at any other modern time" (your words again), then your entire position is erroneous.

You're leaping around a little here. I didn't say Reagan caused a moral rise, I said the country was on a "brief moral high". I think that was partly why Reagan was elected, and I think it didn't last long. Reagan didn't cause it. President's don't really do that. Patriotism can. And, when Carter left, patriotism soared. As when 9/11 happened.

What of my position is actually erroneous? I said that we're more secular now, and that crime is more violent now than 100 years ago, or than 50 years ago. Your data proved me right (though I was wrong to think it was a steady trend - it was a cyclic action from the 1910's through now, all higher than turn of the last century).

 

[Xaquin44]

What of my position is actually erroneous? I said that we're more secular now, and that crime is more violent now than 100 years ago, or than 50 years ago. Your data proved me right (though I was wrong to think it was a steady trend - it was a cyclic action from the 1910's through now, all higher than turn of the last century).

The Inquistion (Let’s Begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission
To convert the Jew (Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew)
We’re gonna teach them (Wrong from right)
We’re gonna help them (See the light)
And make an offer that they can’t refuse.
(That the Jews just can’t refuse)

Confess…Don’t be boring
Say yes… Don’t be dull
A fact… You’re ignoring
It’s better to lose your skullcap than your skull (Or your gavalt)

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know you’re wishing that we’d go away
But the inquisition’s here and it’s here to stay

The inquisition (Oh boy)
The inquisition (What joy)
The inquisition (Oi oi)

I was sitting in a chapel I was minding my own business
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass
Then these papus person’s plungered
And they throw me in a dungeon
And they shoved a red hot poker up my ass
Is that considerate?
Is that polite?
And not a tube of preparation H in sight.

I’m sittin’ flickin’ chickens
And was lookin’ thru the thickens
When suddenly these guys break down the walls
I didn’t even know them
And they grabbed me by the scrotum
And they started playing Ping Pong with my balls
Oy the agony
Oy the Shame
To make my privates public for a game

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know you’re wishing that we’d go away
But the inquisition’s here and it’s here to…

Hey Torquemada
What do you say

I just got back from the auto-da-fé ,
auto-da-fé What’s the auto-da-fé?
It’s what you oughtn’t to do but you do anyway.

Skit scat doodlebac doodle be bay

Will you convert….NO NO NO NO
Will you confess….NO NO NO NO
Will you revert….NO NO NO NO
Will you say YES….NO NO NO NO

Now I asked in a nice way
I said pretty please
I bent their ears
Now I’ll work on the knees

Hey Torquemada
Walk this way
We got a new game you might want to play
Pull this handle, try your luck
Who knows Torque, You might win a buck (All right)

Put it in the car
In the car In the car

How we doing. Any converts today?
Not a one Nay Nay Nay
We’ve flattened their fingers
We’ve branded their buns
Nothing is working
SEND IN THE NUNS

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know you’re wishing that we’d go away
So come on all you heathens and you Jews
We got some good news for all of yous
You’d better change your point of views today
Cause the inquisitions here and it’s here to say.

 

[This_person]

The Inquistion (Let’s Begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission
To convert the Jew (Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew)
We’re gonna teach them (Wrong from right)
We’re gonna help them (See the light)
And make an offer that they can’t refuse.
(That the Jews just can’t refuse)

Confess…Don’t be boring
Say yes… Don’t be dull
A fact… You’re ignoring
It’s better to lose your skullcap than your skull (Or your gavalt)

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know you’re wishing that we’d go away
But the inquisition’s here and it’s here to stay

The inquisition (Oh boy)
The inquisition (What joy)
The inquisition (Oi oi)

I was sitting in a chapel I was minding my own business
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass
Then these papus person’s plungered
And they throw me in a dungeon
And they shoved a red hot poker up my ass
Is that considerate?
Is that polite?
And not a tube of preparation H in sight.

I’m sittin’ flickin’ chickens
And was lookin’ thru the thickens
When suddenly these guys break down the walls
I didn’t even know them
And they grabbed me by the scrotum
And they started playing Ping Pong with my balls
Oy the agony
Oy the Shame
To make my privates public for a game

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know you’re wishing that we’d go away
But the inquisition’s here and it’s here to…

Hey Torquemada
What do you say

I just got back from the auto-da-fé ,
auto-da-fé What’s the auto-da-fé?
It’s what you oughtn’t to do but you do anyway.

Skit scat doodlebac doodle be bay

Will you convert….NO NO NO NO
Will you confess….NO NO NO NO
Will you revert….NO NO NO NO
Will you say YES….NO NO NO NO

Now I asked in a nice way
I said pretty please
I bent their ears
Now I’ll work on the knees

Hey Torquemada
Walk this way
We got a new game you might want to play
Pull this handle, try your luck
Who knows Torque, You might win a buck (All right)

Put it in the car
In the car In the car

How we doing. Any converts today?
Not a one Nay Nay Nay
We’ve flattened their fingers
We’ve branded their buns
Nothing is working
SEND IN THE NUNS

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know you’re wishing that we’d go away
So come on all you heathens and you Jews
We got some good news for all of yous
You’d better change your point of views today
Cause the inquisitions here and it’s here to say.

Funny movie.

 

[Xaquin44]

oh, aye