Larry Gude
Strung Out
Another vote for the status quo, then?
Withholding taxes...
- Thread starter Larry Gude
- Start date
Another vote for the status quo, then?
Why do you do that?
You tilt at windmills then, when someone points out to you that you're tilting at windmills, you retort, "Well, you must just like things the way they are, then!"
It's annoying and a conversation killer.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
I used to ask if the opposite of orange is green. As though such things have only two choices and they are polar opposites. Same argument. Don't like my absurd proposition? Then you must like the status quo?
It falls on its face in two areas, one being, the likelihood of default or the burden and waste of spending government money to manage the default. We already have an industry around defaults of student loans and government backed mortgages. We already have a situation where a substantial portion of all tax returns are sent the night of April 15th even though most Americans have all their information to do them for months. We have a Census every ten years, and we still have to do tens of millions of home visits, because someone can't answer ten questions - and it doesn't even cost anything.
The second area however, is even bigger - and that's the presumption that IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE. You know, it costs more than twice what it used to, to see a movie, and people still pay it. Willingly. They still pay the MVA whatever the emissions fees are, or the renewal costs, and they just pay them. They don't assemble protests or get involved to get their state representatives to speak up. They just pay it.
And you still have to file a return, so I don't know what good it does.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I offer an idea and explain why I think it would be a good idea. You say I am tilting at windmills. That's conducive to conversation? No disagreement or alternate view, just out of hand derision and dismissal? That's not annoying?
I asked if you are supporting the status quo. I did not say, and you can check, 'well, you must like things the way they are...'. So, let's try this; Are there any political ideas out there that you DON'T find to be unwinnable battles, that you think would be good ideas and should be pursued?
In order to have a more responsible government, we must start with a more responsible constituency. That means that folks must be more interested in what's going on in our country than they are with sex, drugs, celebrities and reality television shows.
And that ain't gonna happen.
We are outnumbered, nothing we can do about it, resistance is futile.
I understand Larry's idealism - he almost always gives people more credit than they deserve for intelligence and interest. But in the real world, only a handful of people really know what's going on, and slightly less actually care.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
Ironically, this nation was FOUNDED without the active support of about two thirds of its citizenry - and a third was actually actively OPPOSED to it, and helped the enemy.
Moreover, involvement was generally concentrated along the coasts, and towards the North. The further inland you went, the less people gave a crap about a Revolution.
You also had a citizenry that enlisted for a year - with pay - to fight for their country. And most bailed after their term was up.
It's not as though this country hasn't always had troubles with getting citizens to give a crap.
Yes...end withholding. Go to the Fair Tax and you will end FED withholding. States can do whatever they what they want.
Do you think that if we, the people, had to write checks for all our taxes instead of them being taken out of our paychecks, withheld, and piggy backed on other bills (see your cable and phone bills or look at an airline ticket etc) that, on the whole, more people would actually pay attention to their elected reps and become more knowledgeable about how their money is being spent?
Yes vote means better engaged citizenry.
No vote means withholding makes no difference.
Otter
Nothing to see here
I knew what you mean, as usual. I just wanted to get a shot in at Teddy because he is, in my veiw, far more revered than he earned.
i before e except after c
Larry Gude
Strung Out
END withholding and just institute the Fair Tax. :shrug:
You wouldn't need to withhold money for taxes - the Fair Tax would fund the programs that use our taxes now. We could have OUR OWN full paychecks. That would also take care of the problem of people forgetting to write a check to pay their own "fair share".
You wouldn't need to withhold money for taxes - the Fair Tax would fund the programs that use our taxes now. We could have OUR OWN full paychecks. That would also take care of the problem of people forgetting to write a check to pay their own "fair share".
E
EmptyTimCup
Guest
I heard the other day 70% of the Economy is Consumer spending on bigger TV's a New Car ... etc
and the recovery ain't going anywhere, because too many people are already awash in massive credit card debt .... and can extend no more
E
EmptyTimCup
Guest
Good! Choice, not compulsory!
I believe the biggest benefit of doing this would be, people would really see what a pay check with no deductions looked like, and would go
wtf , the Gobberment asking for more to give away ..... to to .... some welfare queen with a 50 inch plasma screen and I am eating beans 4 nights a week to just get by .....
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I believe the biggest benefit of doing this would be, people would really see what a pay check with no deductions looked like, and would go
I don't see how anyone could see it otherwise.
Consider the expressed concerns in the responses;
One concern is the government not getting money. The government not getting our money. The government that already takes way too much money not getting more. :shrug: Perish the thought.
The other concern is that when an individual has to actually write a check that they won't care even a little bit more about what the government is doing taking so much and won't start voting for people who offer to help them KEEP their own hard earned money and will still vote for people who run on what they can take from one and give to another. My god, the core argument the right makes now is that right wingers are people who have to pay for everything and left wingers are just takers. Well, put it in their hands and see what actually having to pay does for the motivation. :shrug:
The first argument just blows my mind. So what???? They can certainly audit people and work to get compliance, just as they do now but, they will be doing so with a citizenry that has to go through the process of getting all they are owed by the boss and then having to hand it over to 'their', our, gummint. Might it be tougher on the government? I should hope so. Let's spend a billion more on compliance in order to get elected reps who will then cut spending by 10 times that because the voters demand it.
Second, I thought it obvious that withholding makes it less real, less obvious just as a credit card isn't quite the same to many people as actually having to have the cash and/or write a check. I mean, debit cards are making a world of difference in the plastic world; if you don't have the dough in the bank, your card don't work. Point being you are a damn sight more aware of what you have and what you are spending.
That the government should get theirs before us and that having to actually pay for something WON'T make for a more concerned citizen are two arguments I don't begin to understand...
Unless you think withholding is fine and people won't vote responsibly, no matter what. If that is the case, what part of the status quo, it'll never work, Eyore world is actually worth discussing...in a politics forum?
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awpitt
Main Streeter
I guess we're being ignored from the conversation, since no one has so much as bothered to reply to my 2 posts on The Fair Tax.
The Fair Tax would SOLVE all the "income tax issues". AND it would fund all the "programs" we have right now, i.e., SS, Medicare, etc. AND *everyone* would pay taxes! As it is now, more of the population doesn't pay taxes than do. Under the Fair Tax, even illegal aliens would pay taxes!!
I don't know why we would want to do anything else.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I guess we're being ignored from the conversation, since no one has so much as bothered to reply to my 2 posts on The Fair Tax.
The Fair Tax would SOLVE all the "income tax issues". AND it would fund all the "programs" we have right now, i.e., SS, Medicare, etc. AND *everyone* would pay taxes! As it is now, more of the population doesn't pay taxes than do. Under the Fair Tax, even illegal aliens would pay taxes!!
I don't know why we would want to do anything else.
As I understand it, the Fair Tax pays some, many tax payers so they can pay the new tax, yes?
As I understand it, the Fair Tax pays some, many tax payers so they can pay the new tax, yes?
I'm confused as to what you're asking.
But remember, the Fair Tax replaces the current (Federal) income tax.
Americans For Fair Taxation:
awpitt
Main Streeter
Yes, I think Larry is asking about the "prebate".
Americans For Fair Taxation: Frequently Asked Questions Answers
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Larry Gude
Strung Out
I don't wanna shoot the idea down but, I do not think it proper (not that what we have is) for me to be able to vote for all sorts of spending and then choose to not help pay for it by not spending and, worse, get a 'prebate'.