Circus - No fun for animals

[animal lover]

I don't believe that I ever once tried to take away your opinion.  You are pretty defensive over nothing.   I placed a post on this board, because it was for PETS AND ANIMALS.  Not PETA.  Not VEGANs.    I placed the post for people who are interested in helping stop the abuse of animals.  Whether you want to believe it or not it is happening.  I can't make you change your mind.  I can only tell you what I know.  I have given you the website, there are others out there... It's not just PETA.  Its the animals shelters, The ASPCA, the Humane Societies...   Don't bash it just because you hear the name PETA.   If you care about animals, look in to it for yourself.  Or don't.  And just to clear the record.  I am not on here speaking for PETA.  Their views are on their website.  I am on here speaking for me.  I only said that I was a member of PETA, because someone else brought it up.

There isn't much of a point yelling at me.   And as far as the "reality of nature" goes.   How often do you see a bear riding a bike though the woods?  

 

[BL]

Animal Lover,

Like other people were saying in this thread, don’t you have other things to worry about?  It is because of people like you that we lost religion in school, can’t even say the Pledge of Allegiance in the class room in some parts of the country, and I even heard recently that some people think dodge ball is a demoralizing game (what a joke).  Why don’t you concentrate on cutting taxes or something like that?  Now you want to take away the circus from the kids.   What is next, they can’t go outside because they might step on the grass or touch a tree.  

 

[jimmy]

Wow....Ken, I've never heard you this animated! Nice, nice...this is quite a good little fight going on here.  I just HAVE to say something after seeing how rough and tumble this is.
For one; I have no doubt that there is mistreatment of animals in the circus. I think it's impossible to guage their "happiness level" since they can't...uh...talk...but never-the-less, most animals are probably better off in the wild---THAT BEING SAID---
I agree with Ken that simply shutting these circuses down and lashing out against the owners/performers is NOT the quick fix solution you, animial lover, seem to see it to be.  The DLLR, ASPCA and whatever other anmial-acronym watch-dogs are most likely well aware of any of these conditions in these circuses and have, thus far, allowed them to operate. So you really can't fault these guys for making a legal buck. And most of the people in the circus are PERFORMERS who have a vested interest in entertaining and, thus, are not seeing "opportunities for animal cruelty" as their primary impetus for joining.
So maybe something is going on that needs to be addressed. I still don't feel like your demonizing of the Circus (or for that matter, the childish way you chose to attack ken) are really doing anything for your cause.

 

[animal lover]

Jimmy -
First off thank you for taking the time to read my post.  

Secondly, while I appreciate your response, I think you may have gotten my intentions wrong, right along with everyone else.   I am not attacking the circus or the men and women that work in it.  I don't think that I have a quick fix.  Yes, there are other agencies working to ban live animal acts, and no they don't agree with the circus.  But you are right.  Right now they are legal.  That doesn't make what happens in them right.  The animal welfare act is very broad and does not cover everything.  That is something that we are trying to change.  But, like everything else it takes time.   Until then, I think that people need to make it known that we will not tolerate abuse to animals.  I don't know very many people that think it is okay.  Even while most of you have been spitting venom at me, you still agree that the abuse that goes on is wrong.  I never said lets throw the performers in the circus on to the fire.  But boycotting the circus itself is the first step to changing the abuse that goes on in them.

A couple people have asked why I'm not fighting child abuse, or tax laws etc.  I am fighting this because I believe that animals deserve better treatment.  I think that they have a right to be treated humanely.  

This isn't a new idea everyone.  Some countries have banned live animal acts.  Loads of counties in the states have as well.  I'm not some radicial who's going to light the circus tent on fire.  I'm not making the abuse up for something to write a post about... it's happening.   All I wanted to do was make people aware that it was going on.

I'm sorry Jimmy if you think my responses to Ken were childish.  I didn't see any reason to get as upset as he obviously was.  In future I can start calling his mother names too, if you view that as more mature.

 

[vraiblonde]

Well.  Leave this forum for one evening and all hell breaks loose.  Cariblue and Missi.  AnimalLover and Ken.  Everyone wants to duke it out.  And JIMMY taking up for KEN!  Slap my face and call me Alice.

I agree with AnimalLover that most live animal acts are cruel BUT it's not true that animals are better off in the wild.  Don't you watch the Discovery Channel?

AL sez

Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire

True - they naturally hunt, kill and eat each other.  If you were a lion, how would you rather spend your days - trying to keep the predators off your cubs or balancing on a ball?  Starving in the African veldt or jumping through a hoop?  Circus animals actually have it better than their wild counterparts, if you think about it.

 

[mark]

vrailblonde...you really are an idiot...circus animals have it better off...? are you for real, you probably also think that alaska borders florida... animals are far better off in the wild, that beaten, tortured and humiliated in a circus...

if i were a lion i would much rather take my chances ofn the african savannah than live in a cage in a circus, fearful for my life...

i completely agree with animal lover and I for one am not going to go to the circus....

 

[mark]

ken,

If you are still around, i have been listening to you go on and on... you really are small minded aren't you... educate yourself before you going spouting off bashing other people...

animal lover is right, circuses are horrifically cruel to animals...and they will be beaten and starved and tortured to make them perform... and if you are wondering how i know that...i used to work for ringling brothers..i have witnessed the barbaric acts of cruelty that go on behind the scenes...

you may take you children to the circus and everyone will go oohhh at the animals but they are being tortured and humiliated and do these tricks because they are intensely fearfull of their handler... please don't support the circus everyone... explain to your children that circus harm animals and that is why we do not go... take you kids to a wildlife park, do not encourage these circuses to show animals... think before you act..

 

[animal lover]

cariblue -
The quickest site I can give you right now is www.milksucks.com.  That has lots of links off of it to medical sites, etc.   I will look through my stuff and get you a site that doesn't link back to PETA, since I already know in this chat room, PETA makes people spit at me...  

 

[vraiblonde]

Mark, what on Earth did I do to you that you would use your very first post on these forums to call me names?  At least I know that Alaska and Florida are supposed to be capitalized.  So who's the idiot?

<i>There's</i> the PETA people we know and love.  Even AnimalLover couldn't hold out for long before she started wigging out and getting abusive.  Now, ask again why nobody wants to support your cause...

 

[Christy]

Okay, I don't normally do this, but I just can't help myself!

I simply find it hysterical that Mark is requesting Ken to educate himself and calling Vrai an idiot, when he can't even put a grammatically accurate sentence together!    

On another note.... Jeesh guys!  Lighten up on animal lover!   Just because she's got a soft spot for the dancing bears, doesn't make her a total left wing devil, hell bent on destroying the lives of the Right (big emphasis on the "Right"!  As we are always RIGHT! )

Sorry!    Couldn't control that little outburst!  

(Edited by Christy at 12:48 pm on April 23, 2002)


(Edited by Christy at 1:01 pm on April 23, 2002)

 

[mark]

I am not a member of PETA.... I actually used to work in the circus... I am verbally bashing you because I have never heard anything so stupid in my life..

you said they naturally hunt, kill and eat each other...you hit the note there...NATURALLY..... do you really think that it is natural for lions to jump through hoops or balance on a ball.... think will you.... at the moment you live in your natural surroundings... if you were forcibly removed from where you lived, put in a cage and then made to perform tricks in front of hundreds of people screaming would you be afraid...of course you would... and humans can understand what is going on.... do you think that a lion can fully comprehend what has happened to it....

you think about it......

 

[animal lover]

Vrai -
A person can only be shouted at for so long before firing something back.  I think I did quite well holding out as long as I did.

Again, I am not here to defend PETA.  I am here to defend the animals who are being abused.  If I lash out at someone because of comments that are made, that is in no way a reflection of PETA.  Just because I am a member of PETA, doesn't make me a spokesperson.  

I don't know what happened in here before that makes you all despise PETA so much, but I wish you would take the label off of me and just read what I am trying to say.  You are all so hell bent on labeling me as one of the "PETA fanatics" that you are missing the point.

Christy - THANK YOU!!!  

and Mark - Thank you too.  It's nice to have someone on my side.

 

[jimmy]

Mark,
You used to work in the circus???? For real? Dude, what did you do???? I've never heard from anyone that actually WORKED at the circus....

Vrai,
Ken and I come down on similar sides in the Israel/Palestine thing too, you know...I respect him and, though he didn't need it I'm sure, took umbrage with the way AL tried to discredit him by simply saying "you are ignorant and I'm right"...I hate that kind of thinking...even though I get accused of it a lot...hmmm....

AL,
I DO think that animal cruelty is an issue that needs to be taken seriously. I won't EVER become a vegitarian but I probably would have trouble killing an animal myself. Not to say that I'm agianst hunting or killing animals for food, I just don't know if I could do it (I'm glad I have friends that do, though cause damn is venision good eats!!). But I find it hard to condone things like the way veal is raised or how chickens are bred for breast meat so large they can hardly stand and some have no beaks or something...seems a little over the top. But I'm not sure that all animals that perform in a circus are beaten and shocked and starved. Common sense would lead me to believe that these institutions are watched at least fairly carefully and the treatment of these animals MUST have gotten better over the years.  I can't just trust any info that an activist gives to me because there's an agenda there. I really wish that BOTH sides of this arguement had been presented but, so far, I haven't seen a source from you that shows the other side and then had you discredit it. That's how I'm convinced of things; a two-sided argument.

 

[mark]

well christy

again we are getting off the topic, but i hardly think that this is the place to worry about making sure that your sentance is grammatically correct, i guess you really have nothing to do...

concentrate on the subject matter, this is not merely a chat room... this is an important subject... at the end of the day, no matter what anybody says, circuses torture, humiliate and perform horrific acts of cruelty on the animals that they own..  thats it.. it is as simple as that... why do we want to support that ? Why do we want to help put money in the pockets of people that condone this ?

this is not about eating meat, or whether vegans are left wing or communists or anything like that... this is about circuses abuse animals and if we pay money to the circus we condone that...

think that through in your head... if we pay money to the circus, we condone animal cruelty... as much so as if someone came into your yard, or your house took your beloved dog or cat and tortured it....

if we pay money to the circus we condone animal cruelty, we condone torturing these beautiful animals... we condone this to continue.... can you live with yourself... at the moment an elephant is being whipped, beaten , starved and tortured in preparation for this show....

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TAKE YOU KIDS TO THAT ?

 

[vraiblonde]

Well, Mark, you must be pretty young if that's the stupidest thing you've ever heard.  And I don't think verbal bashing is the best way to get your point across.

"Nature, red in tooth and claw"...just like animal rights activists.

 

[mark]

jimmy, i used to work as a general handy man, helping to put together stages, rig lights, fix trucks, etc, etc, ..you name it everything

and animal lover is not joking when she tells what is happening in these places, i have witnessed horrific acts.... the kind that turn your stomach to get these animals to get ready for a show... the conditions that they are in are really terrible....and the brutallity that goes on is unbelievable..

I know a few guys that left because these circus people were so sick, i really mean it.... don't let your kids go and see these guys... you are giving money to some of the most sick twisted people out there...

sure it may look good under that big top, with all the pretty clothes and lights.... but behind the scenes, you wouldn't be able to stop yourself from thowing up...it really is sick..... don't go...and tell your friends not to go... circus people are not the sort of people you want in your town...

believe me ....

 

[Christy]

Mark,  Seems to me, the circus put money in your pocket for a while.     You must be from France!  Mr. Hypocrite!    And by the way dude, read the subject matter fully before you go off half cocked.  I DON'T DO THE CIRCUS!  Nor do I take my kids.  So back off buckaroo!  

"if you were forcibly removed from where you lived, put in a cage and then made to perform tricks in front of hundreds of people screaming would you be afraid..."  Isn't that part of Brittney Spears 2002 concert performance?  

 

[vraiblonde]

AL and Mark, your communication styles leave a lot to be desired.  And yes, AL, since you applauded Mark's ugly behavior, you get lumped in with him as a mean a$$hole.  You showed your true colors.

Why don't you kids think of circuses as taking predators out of the wild so other animals might live?  Think how many zebra lives are saved each year because some of their natural enemies are removed.  Ever see a lion run down a zebra?  Pretty nasty stuff.  Oh, I forgot - you all don't watch Discovery.

 

[animal lover]

Vrai -

You must be joking.  Please tell me that you are not serious.  If you are actually watching the Discovery Channel, then you must have it on mute.  Honestly.  You're being funny right?  You can't honestly think that!  Seriously now, you're joking right?

And hey, don't be so mean.  I never called you any names.  What's the whole mean a$$hole comment for?  I was applauding Mark for seeing my point of view.  Not for calling you an idiot.  

 

[missi1013]

And you guys thought I was mean!  


I'm sorry Cariblue.  Just like AL is trying to get her word out, well so was I.  I worked with PETA one-on-one.  I don't just send money in once a month like AL.  I should have been a little nicer about it.  That's really not me.  So I hope you can forgive me.  Thanks.