Israel, not Hamas, is the serial truce-breaker

[Hijinx]

Great stuff! Very interesting and a great big "So what?"

Do we give Texas back to Mexico? Return California? How about giving native American's their land back? Should we devolve every nation and every state back to it's 'original' roots? Or maybe to the people who 'owned' it before those people did? Where do we stop?

This is complete utter nonsense. What matters are OUR interests. Sometimes that means we'd like things the way they were; kick Iraq out of Kuwait. Sometimes, we'd like things to change; Cuban throw off their communist ties. Other times, we just sort of muddle through. However, something needs to guide our reasoning and that is freedom and liberty. I think we made a grave mistake killing those things in their crib in Iran in the 1950's. I think we're doing the right thing siding with Israel over the years.

Why? Because, like Iran in the 50's, Israel is an adherent to the ideas and philosophies of individual liberty and responsibility and justice. Most any one of us would be at home and do just fine in Israel. I don't think many, if any, of us would do well and be fine in Palestine. or Egypt. Or Saudi. Or Beirut.

The oppression is not just coming from the Israeli's in terms of Gaza. We tend to forget, if we even realize it, how the Arab nations have, over the years, done more than their fair share to oppress, fence in and control Palestinians. It serves THEIR interests to focus attention on Israel instead of their own problems.

We can coffee shop talk forever about what belongs to whom and when and why or we can, as Westerners, say, hey, we have a lot more in common with Israel than Palestinians. And it all boils down to this;

If the Palestinians laid down their arms today and vowed to live in peace with Israel, there would be peace between the two sides.
If the Jews laid down their arms today and vowed to live in peace with the Palestinians, there would not be peace. There would be a lot of dead Jews.

Unless and until that second part of the equation changes, there will not be peace and it will be the fault of the Palestinians and their like-minded friends.

It's that simple.

Like.

Do we give Texas back to Mexico? Return California? Barry is working on that.

 

[GURPS]

Great stuff! Very interesting and a great big "So what?"

Do we give Texas back to Mexico? Return California? How about giving native American's their land back? Should we devolve every nation and every state back to it's 'original' roots? Or maybe to the people who 'owned' it before those people did? Where do we stop?

roll back 3000 yrs, before the Romans conquered the known world, Jews were in control of the Area

 

[Larry Gude]

Like.

Do we give Texas back to Mexico? Return California? Barry is working on that.

Following the given reasoning, shouldn't it be the Aztecs we give it back to? Or the Olmecs?

 

[Beta]

The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up
the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism.
The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist
movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish
state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased
back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed
a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized
without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t
based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

Ok, isn't that how the entire world came to existence? People moved to different locations and eventually established control. Where do you put your primary country loyalty? If it's America, then maybe you should give your home to a Native American whose ancestors lived in your neighborhood area. Maybe you should tear down your house and populate it with trees and just give them back the land, closer to how it was when it was theirs.

In fact, forgetting that Jews had once been in control of that region before being forced out themselves, how is the story you're providing that bad? According to you, they bought land. OH THE HORROR! Did they come over by boat to a foreign land, think it was India at first, then start killing the natives, making them sick with their foreign diseases, and drive them off their land, killing everyone who resisted? Oh right, that's how we got here. If Americans only knew (the website you linked us to) how the "wretched" story of the Jewish state of Israel wasn't nearly as bad as the one we make into folklore for our own country.

Great stuff! Very interesting and a great big "So what?"

Do we give Texas back to Mexico? Return California? How about giving native American's their land back? Should we devolve every nation and every state back to it's 'original' roots? Or maybe to the people who 'owned' it before those people did? Where do we stop?

This is complete utter nonsense. What matters are OUR interests. Sometimes that means we'd like things the way they were; kick Iraq out of Kuwait. Sometimes, we'd like things to change; Cuban throw off their communist ties. Other times, we just sort of muddle through. However, something needs to guide our reasoning and that is freedom and liberty. I think we made a grave mistake killing those things in their crib in Iran in the 1950's. I think we're doing the right thing siding with Israel over the years.

Why? Because, like Iran in the 50's, Israel is an adherent to the ideas and philosophies of individual liberty and responsibility and justice. Most any one of us would be at home and do just fine in Israel. I don't think many, if any, of us would do well and be fine in Palestine. or Egypt. Or Saudi. Or Beirut.

The oppression is not just coming from the Israeli's in terms of Gaza. We tend to forget, if we even realize it, how the Arab nations have, over the years, done more than their fair share to oppress, fence in and control Palestinians. It serves THEIR interests to focus attention on Israel instead of their own problems.

We can coffee shop talk forever about what belongs to whom and when and why or we can, as Westerners, say, hey, we have a lot more in common with Israel than Palestinians. And it all boils down to this;

If the Palestinians laid down their arms today and vowed to live in peace with Israel, there would be peace between the two sides.
If the Jews laid down their arms today and vowed to live in peace with the Palestinians, there would not be peace. There would be a lot of dead Jews.

Unless and until that second part of the equation changes, there will not be peace and it will be the fault of the Palestinians and their like-minded friends.

It's that simple.

Good post.

Only one thing I disagree with: not everyone would feel at home...hippy idiots like FollowTheMoney (who clearly isn't following the money with this argument...ha!) would hate being stuck serving in the military for a couple years. OH THE HORROR!

 

[Beta]

Following the given reasoning, shouldn't it be the Aztecs we give it back to? Or the Olmecs?

They probably both conquered it away from someone else. Keep digging.

But first, I want FollowTheMoney to give back his residence to the Native Americans and move back to whatever hole he descended from.

 

[Larry Gude]

Only one thing I disagree with: not everyone would feel at home...hippy idiots like FollowTheMoney (who clearly isn't following the money with this argument...ha!) would hate being stuck serving in the military for a couple years. OH THE HORROR!

Regardless of being a hippie or idiot, I bet he'd choose Israel over Palestine. Or Egypt. Or Syria. Jordan might not be too bad.

 

[Beta]

Regardless of being a hippie or idiot, I bet he'd choose Israel over Palestine. Or Egypt. Or Syria. Jordan might not be too bad.

But wait...Palestine's land in the west bank was Jordan, not Palestine, after the British left. And Gaza was Egypt, not Palestine.

People love forgetting that part of the story. You don't see Jordan or Egypt fighting for their land back. Palestine is a brand new country that never existed. Egypt and Jordan are both happy making that Israel's problem, because neither of them want to deal with the Palestinians. Wonder why.......

 

[FollowTheMoney]

Au Contraire

Only one thing I disagree with: not everyone would feel at home...hippy idiots like FollowTheMoney (who clearly isn't following the money with this argument...ha!) would hate being stuck serving in the military for a couple years. OH THE HORROR!

As a matter of fact, I happen to be a combat veteran and served many years for this Country.

Regardless of being a hippie or idiot, I bet he'd choose Israel over Palestine. Or Egypt. Or Syria. Jordan might not be too bad.

I side with America and only America. I really could give a damn about jews or arabs. But when our Government picks sides and then gives our money that is used
to fight an unconventional war that targets civilians, then I have a problem. In addition, with all the "Ministry's of Propaganda" I don't believe anything thing that
our government or Israel says. Especially since the media are own by jews.
I prefer to do my own research and reading to find something that is closer to the truth than what the you and I are being spoon feed on a daily basis.

Do we give Texas back to Mexico? Return California? Barry is working on that.

Did we have another country give us money and weapons to fight the Mexican war? Did any country give us money or weapons for any conflict on this land? And you
know what I mean. Not like with the French during the revolution. For actions similar to the current events.
If those jews are so smart and independent, and with as much money they make themselves, why can't they support themselves?

 

[Beta]

As a matter of fact, I happen to be a combat veteran and served many years for this Country.


I side with America and only America. I really could give a damn about jews or arabs. But when our Government picks sides and then gives our money that is used
to fight an unconventional war that targets civilians, then I have a problem. In addition, with all the "Ministry's of Propaganda" I don't believe anything thing that
our government or Israel says. Especially since the media are own by jews.
I prefer to do my own research and reading to find something that is closer to the truth than what the you and I are being spoon feed on a daily basis.


Did we have another country give us money and weapons to fight the Mexican war? Did any country give us money or weapons for any conflict on this land? And you
know what I mean. Not like with the French during the revolution. For actions similar to the current events.
If those jews are so smart and independent, and with as much money they make themselves, why can't they support themselves?

quoting this for posterity. you really are an ignorant, hateful bastard, aren't you?

 

[Larry Gude]

I side with America and only America. I really could give a damn about jews or arabs. But when our Government picks sides and then gives our money that is used
to fight an unconventional war that targets civilians, then I have a problem. ?

I would, too. If Israel were using our money to target civilians and the best they can do is a 1,000 or so, that leaves us one of two follow up questions; either they're not very good at this or they are VERY good at this.

As for sides, I have long said that the best thing America could do is get the hell out of Israels way and let them take care of their business. We are, by design, as much an impediment as an ally.

 

[Gilligan]

The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

Maybe this is simply geo-political Darwinism at work, just as it has since man first formed tribes. You see how incredibly bad the Israeli's whupped on the entire array of Arab military forces arrayed against them in '67?

 

[Larry Gude]

Did we have another country give us money and weapons to fight the Mexican war? Did any country give us money or weapons for any conflict on this land? And you
know what I mean. Not like with the French during the revolution. For actions similar to the current events.
If those jews are so smart and independent, and with as much money they make themselves, why can't they support themselves?

Again, I'm with you; let them deal with their enemies as they see fit.

However, to your question, maybe you missed the entire pre-revolutionary period where Britain and France used us as pawns in their great game? Past that, Great Britain was building ships for the confederacy and supplying arms and seriously considered backing the South in our civil war. I really don't see where you are going with this past minding our own business.

I, personally, think it's a good thing for the world that Israel exists. I also think if they laid down their arms, they'd all be dead by the end of the week. I don't see the converse happening were the Palestinians wiling to live in peace with Israel.

There's a rather large distinction there, I think.

 

[Larry Gude]

Maybe this is simply geo-political Darwinism at work, just as it has since man first formed tribes. You see how incredibly bad the Israeli's whupped on the entire array of Arab military forces arrayed against them in '67?

However, absent us, we'd agree they'd have been wiped out, yes? And then, it moves to why they would have been wiped out; the USSR support of the other team. So it goes.

 

[Larry Gude]

But wait...Palestine's land in the west bank was Jordan, not Palestine, after the British left. And Gaza was Egypt, not Palestine.

People love forgetting that part of the story. You don't see Jordan or Egypt fighting for their land back. Palestine is a brand new country that never existed. Egypt and Jordan are both happy making that Israel's problem, because neither of them want to deal with the Palestinians. Wonder why.......

I know that, you know that. A lot of people know that. I'd just point out that by recognizing and accepting Palestine as a new nation, we set the table for them to, in turn, recognize and accept Israel.

The fact of the matter is that we are all starting to accept the two state solution regardless of the formality. If it were me, I'd argue that point, very strenuously.

 

[Larry Gude]

Maybe this is simply geo-political Darwinism at work, just as it has since man first formed tribes. You see how incredibly bad the Israeli's whupped on the entire array of Arab military forces arrayed against them in '67?

Darwin didn't take into account the global arms trade whereby the weaker have a say in their own extinction.

 

[Gilligan]

However, absent us, we'd agree they'd have been wiped out, yes? .

I hope you are kidding. Until that conflict, we went to some real lengths to avoid providing them any significant military aid. During that conflict, Johnson was anything but "supportive". Their IDF that won the '67 war so handily was built with mostly French assistance.

 

[Larry Gude]

I hope you are kidding. Until that conflict, we went to some real lengths to avoid providing them any significant military aid. During that conflict, Johnson was anything but "supportive". Their IDF that won the '67 war so handily was built with mostly French assistance.

You know what? I think I was wrong. A soon as I read 'French' in your post, their Mirages flashed into my mind.

My bad.

 

[FollowTheMoney]

quoting this for posterity. you really are an ignorant, hateful bastard, aren't you?

So, because I have a different opinion than yours, I'm ignorant and hateful? Maybe that's why you use the handle "Beta"
you're still in the experimental stage and haven't fully matured yet.

 

[Gilligan]

Darwin didn't take into account the global arms trade whereby the weaker have a say in their own extinction.

meh..merely delaying the inevitable, I say.

 

[Larry Gude]

meh..merely delaying the inevitable, I say.

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