##### needed in coming year

[TurboK9]

Thank you Suz for being far more civil and accepting of criticism, even if it wasn't all constructive.

Just one more thing, though... Be careful with the phrase 'show quality', or make sure to add the "in my opinion" particularly if you are posting about breeding... The reason being, for serious folk, 'show quality' equates to a statement of fact, not opinion. Lineage also does not foreshadow this, and it is often that a dog fits the breed standard but never does well showing... You don't want to make 'promises' until you know for certain.

If you pursue this, do it right and responsibly and I'll wish you best of luck!

 

[cattitude]

Well here's some info for you since you WERE NOT in the truck and sharing the 16 hour drive to pick him up.......... After you posted in the last thread about the law and age thing, I followed up on it with the breeder and the state of Ohio. And made sure he was of legal age before I picked him up. I know your passionate about animals etc and I respect that, know the facts before you attack me.

I didn't attack you..I was asking you honest questions based on the previous thread and the pm's you sent saying you didn't understand the law and if I couldn't explain it any better than the chart I sent you, and you said "frankly, I'm not seeing it" and asked me to butt out. I was genuinely trying to help you because I had a bad experience with a local backyard breeder.

I didn't get personal or nasty in this thread.

The breeder was willing to sell/ship him at 6 weeks which in my mind is a red flag. Another red flag to me is that the breeder is allowing you to pick the biatch. Good breeders usually keep tight control on their "lines" and show quality pups are often co-owned and others are sold with spay/neuter agreements and you don't get the registration papers until proof of spay/neuter has been given to the breeder.

Just because you think he's show quality doesn't really mean much. He may come from good stock but that doesn't mean he is show quality.

This is informative...

One of the most important parts of your education is learning what the “breed standard” means. Each AKC-recognized breed has a written standard of perfection. It describes what that breed should look, move and act like. Serious breeders constantly measure, test and compare against this standard before deciding whether their chosen dog is good enough to breed. They show their dogs in order to compare them with others of high quality. Standards aren’t easily understood in one reading. It takes study and exposure to hundreds of dogs before you can really see why certain characteristics are important and whether or not your dog has them to such a degree that breeding it would improve the overall quality of the entire breed. That’s the real goal of serious dog breeding and the ONLY reason to breed any dog - to produce animals that are exceptional in appearance, health, temperament and trainability.

It can take years to gain this kind of knowledge and along the way, you might learn that the dog you have is a fine pet, but not good breeding stock. If so, you’re in good company. Some of today’s most successful breeders began by finding out the same thing. They discovered that getting a dog of suitable quality meant a serious financial commitment and a lifetime of dedication to do their very best even though there would be no real monetary reward for their effort.


Should I Breed My Dog?


Before you breed your dog, please consider some important facts: Chow Chows aren't rare any more. During the 1980's, as many as 50,000 Chow puppies a year were registered by the AKC. This is about half of all Chows born during that time, the height of the breed's recent popularity. For awhile, Chows were one of the most popular breeds in the country and puppies were easy to sell. But the public is fickle and fads pass quickly. The Chow isn't the "in" breed to have anymore and puppies are becoming hard to sell at any price. Chow Rescue groups all around the country have been overrun with abused, neglected and abandoned Chows in need of permanent, loving homes. In the past few years, more Chows have been "dumped" by their owners than ever before. Many of them come from what you might consider to be "good" homes.

Chow Chow Welfare: Should I Breed My Chow Chow?


Good luck.

 

[ICit]

Well here's some info for you since you WERE NOT in the truck and sharing the 16 hour drive to pick him up.......... After you posted in the last thread about the law and age thing, I followed up on it with the breeder and the state of Ohio. And made sure he was of legal age before I picked him up. I know your passionate about animals etc and I respect that, know the facts before you attack me.



Good post and thanks for the info. Given the fact that I have plenty of time before he is old enough to mate, I was planning on doing a lot of research before hand.

As for show quality. It's MY OPINION, based on the ribbons, papers, trophies his parents have won and his pedigree papers, that he is of show quality. I don't plan to breed him just for $$. My intent is the same as the breeders I got him from. To promote the breed for quality, temperment and excellent health. And yes, he has been checked from head to toe by a qualified vet and will have it done again before he is bred.

QUOTE]

So by the sounds of it you are going to take responsibility and take him on the show circuit around the East Coast? Have you taken a handlers course? Or do you plan on hiring a professional handler for your dog?

How old is he now? Have you started to work with him in the ring? Working on his stand, his gait, how he handles touch by another person, getting groomed?

The official OFA cert does not come till around 2yrs for the hips and elbows but you should get them done once before then to get an idea of where you stand. You really need to talk to your vet about it because some do not do them because OFA tends to be very picky about the xrays. Most time the dogs need to be sedated to get proper xrays because the technique is what produces good xrays. (tends to be uncomfortable for the dog)

 

[cattataint]

Didn't I just see you post something about having been involved in rescue for many years yet in this thread you admit to buying a dog from a back yard breeder? Double standard much?

 

[TurboK9]

Of course, in Suz's defense, let me point out that many of the problems facing pure breed dogs today are due to narrowing of the genetic pool, and this is mainly due to the fact that breeders gravitate toward a select few award winning dogs and their bloodlines.

For instance, as of today, some breeds, pugs and Boston Terriers most notably, have a scant few "unique genetic individuals" being that the majority of dogs in these breeds are derived from a limited number of bloodlines. The result is fixing of unwanted traits, such as certain health problems.

Notably the issue is more prevalent in toy and non-sporting / working breeds, because conformation is typically the only barometer of breeding worthiness.

I'm not advocating willy-nilly breeding, mind you. Just pointing out that the show ring as a breeding tool has it's own pitfalls.

I'll stop short of advocating for the opening of stud books

 

[cattitude]

Didn't I just see you post something about having been involved in rescue for many years yet in this thread you admit to buying a dog from a back yard breeder? Double standard much?

Yes, I rescue and I have purchased dogs. What's your point?

 

[thatguy]

Yes, I rescue and I have purchased dogs.What's your point?

hypocrite, or at least that would be my guess as to the point trying to be made.......

 

[cattataint]

Yes, I rescue and I have purchased dogs. What's your point?

Not only do you purchase dogs but you admittedly purchase dogs from back yard breeders.

 

[cattataint]

hypocrite, or at least that would be my guess as to the point trying to be made.......

I thought the "Double standard much?" covered it nicely. I wasn't going to repeat myself.

 

[cattitude]

Not only do you purchase dogs but you admittedly purchase dogs from back yard breeders.

Yes, I purchased from someone that I mistakenly trusted, a forum member, who assured me her dogs were healthy.

Your user ID is clearly a dig at me. Why don't you come out from behind your MPD? Until then, you can play your games without my participation.

 

[Suz]

Thank you Suz for being far more civil and accepting of criticism, even if it wasn't all constructive.

Just one more thing, though... Be careful with the phrase 'show quality', or make sure to add the "in my opinion" particularly if you are posting about breeding... The reason being, for serious folk, 'show quality' equates to a statement of fact, not opinion. Lineage also does not foreshadow this, and it is often that a dog fits the breed standard but never does well showing... You don't want to make 'promises' until you know for certain.

If you pursue this, do it right and responsibly and I'll wish you best of luck!

Thank you! I was not aware of this and will refrain from using it.

I didn't attack you..I was asking you honest questions based on the previous thread and the pm's you sent saying you didn't understand the law and if I couldn't explain it any better than the chart I sent you, and you said "frankly, I'm not seeing it" and asked me to butt out. I was genuinely trying to help you because I had a bad experience with a local backyard breeder.

I didn't get personal or nasty in this thread.

The breeder was willing to sell/ship him at 6 weeks which in my mind is a red flag. Another red flag to me is that the breeder is allowing you to pick the biatch. Good breeders usually keep tight control on their "lines" and show quality pups are often co-owned and others are sold with spay/neuter agreements and you don't get the registration papers until proof of spay/neuter has been given to the breeder.

Just because you think he's show quality doesn't really mean much. He may come from good stock but that doesn't mean he is show quality.

This is informative...

One of the most important parts of your education is learning what the “breed standard” means. Each AKC-recognized breed has a written standard of perfection. It describes what that breed should look, move and act like. Serious breeders constantly measure, test and compare against this standard before deciding whether their chosen dog is good enough to breed. They show their dogs in order to compare them with others of high quality. Standards aren’t easily understood in one reading. It takes study and exposure to hundreds of dogs before you can really see why certain characteristics are important and whether or not your dog has them to such a degree that breeding it would improve the overall quality of the entire breed. That’s the real goal of serious dog breeding and the ONLY reason to breed any dog - to produce animals that are exceptional in appearance, health, temperament and trainability.

It can take years to gain this kind of knowledge and along the way, you might learn that the dog you have is a fine pet, but not good breeding stock. If so, you’re in good company. Some of today’s most successful breeders began by finding out the same thing. They discovered that getting a dog of suitable quality meant a serious financial commitment and a lifetime of dedication to do their very best even though there would be no real monetary reward for their effort.


Should I Breed My Dog?


Before you breed your dog, please consider some important facts: Chow Chows aren't rare any more. During the 1980's, as many as 50,000 Chow puppies a year were registered by the AKC. This is about half of all Chows born during that time, the height of the breed's recent popularity. For awhile, Chows were one of the most popular breeds in the country and puppies were easy to sell. But the public is fickle and fads pass quickly. The Chow isn't the "in" breed to have anymore and puppies are becoming hard to sell at any price. Chow Rescue groups all around the country have been overrun with abused, neglected and abandoned Chows in need of permanent, loving homes. In the past few years, more Chows have been "dumped" by their owners than ever before. Many of them come from what you might consider to be "good" homes.

Chow Chow Welfare: Should I Breed My Chow Chow?


Good luck.

Again, good info. Thanks! And i do apologize for earlier.

Well here's some info for you since you WERE NOT in the truck and sharing the 16 hour drive to pick him up.......... After you posted in the last thread about the law and age thing, I followed up on it with the breeder and the state of Ohio. And made sure he was of legal age before I picked him up. I know your passionate about animals etc and I respect that, know the facts before you attack me.



Good post and thanks for the info. Given the fact that I have plenty of time before he is old enough to mate, I was planning on doing a lot of research before hand.

As for show quality. It's MY OPINION, based on the ribbons, papers, trophies his parents have won and his pedigree papers, that he is of show quality. I don't plan to breed him just for $$. My intent is the same as the breeders I got him from. To promote the breed for quality, temperment and excellent health. And yes, he has been checked from head to toe by a qualified vet and will have it done again before he is bred.

QUOTE]

So by the sounds of it you are going to take responsibility and take him on the show circuit around the East Coast? Have you taken a handlers course? Or do you plan on hiring a professional handler for your dog?

How old is he now? Have you started to work with him in the ring? Working on his stand, his gait, how he handles touch by another person, getting groomed?

The official OFA cert does not come till around 2yrs for the hips and elbows but you should get them done once before then to get an idea of where you stand. You really need to talk to your vet about it because some do not do them because OFA tends to be very picky about the xrays. Most time the dogs need to be sedated to get proper xrays because the technique is what produces good xrays. (tends to be uncomfortable for the dog)

More good info! But I don't plan on showing him. Apparently, I was using terminology I shouldn't have.

Now all of you, the pictures are old, but still, isn't he gorgeous? And when have you ever seen a cream Chow? Until now, I never had although I knew they were out there. He really is gorgeous. He's more white with cream on his 4 legs, his face and ears, down the middle of his back and the very tip of his tail. He's a love bug and is doing quite well with his training. Yes, we dropped out of the class, but I bought a book to replace the class.

And as I learn more about breeding him, I may even change my mind about it. :shrug:

 

[ICit]

hypocrite, or at least that would be my guess as to the point trying to be made.......

So whats your point? I have also rescued one of my dogs and I did purchase my last dog for a specific reason.... NOT TO BREED. No intention on breeding and all of my dogs are fixed!

I think there is a time to rescue dogs and a time/reason to purchase dogs from preferable reputable breeders. I did a lot of research on my breeder and she did the same for me as well.

But to go get a dog from a breeder and then decide ... well I think I want to breed this dog because it looks to be show quality... not a great reason.
I dont think Catt has ever made mention to breeding her dogs? :shrug:

 

[TurboK9]

Now all of you, the pictures are old, but still, isn't he gorgeous? And when have you ever seen a cream Chow? Until now, I never had although I knew they were out there. He really is gorgeous. He's more white with cream on his 4 legs, his face and ears, down the middle of his back and the very tip of his tail. He's a love bug and is doing quite well with his training. Yes, we dropped out of the class, but I bought a book to replace the class.

And as I learn more about breeding him, I may even change my mind about it. :shrug:

Well, he's definitely fluffy and cute. But, me, I'm a Dobe lover, so what the heck do I know about poofy dogs?

 

[TurboK9]

I think there is a time to rescue dogs and a time/reason to purchase dogs from preferable reputable breeders. I did a lot of research on my breeder and she did the same for me as well.
QUOTE]

Oh definitley agree. If I ever get serious about competing again, I'll look at rescues, but more than likely will buy an import so that I can be more sure of suitability for the field. I got lucky with Caber, he was awesome, but it was hard work at first. Eric, he was awesome out of the box, popped out of the womb ready to take to the field, LOL.

 

[thatguy]

So whats your point? I have also rescued one of my dogs and I did purchase my last dog for a specific reason.... NOT TO BREED. No intention on breeding and all of my dogs are fixed!

I think there is a time to rescue dogs and a time/reason to purchase dogs from preferable reputable breeders. I did a lot of research on my breeder and she did the same for me as well.

But to go get a dog from a breeder and then decide ... well I think I want to breed this dog because it looks to be show quality... not a great reason.
I dont think Catt has ever made mention to breeding her dogs? :shrug:

i was explaining the other posters point to catt b/c she wanted to pretend she was oblivious.

as for breeding, it should be up to the individual. if they are willing to take the responsibility then they can do what they want. NOWHERE did i see the original poster say she planed on doing anything other than being responsible.
You folks just like to attack people who don't share your opinion about breeding, even if you are guilty of similar indiscretions (and that is where the hypocrite comments come in)

 

[ICit]

Thank you! I was not aware of this and will refrain from using it.



Again, good info. Thanks! And i do apologize for earlier.

More good info! But I don't plan on showing him. Apparently, I was using terminology I shouldn't have.

Now all of you, the pictures are old, but still, isn't he gorgeous? And when have you ever seen a cream Chow? Until now, I never had although I knew they were out there. He really is gorgeous. He's more white with cream on his 4 legs, his face and ears, down the middle of his back and the very tip of his tail. He's a love bug and is doing quite well with his training. Yes, we dropped out of the class, but I bought a book to replace the class.

And as I learn more about breeding him, I may even change my mind about it. :shrug:

If you dont plan on showing him and getting a CH. on him then he is just like a dog from the pound ... all you are doing is putting puppies on the earth. Thats the whole thing about breeders busting their butts in the show ring.... trying to better the breed... what do the judges think... Does the breed stand up to its standards? You will be like "the rest of them". Sorry but you should really take it more serious. The sooner you make the decision the better shape your pup will be in for his life in the future. Such as getting neutered and cutting down the chance of testicular cancer and prostate cancer. :shrug:

 

[cattitude]

i was explaining the other posters point to catt b/c she wanted to pretend she was oblivious.

as for breeding, it should be up to the individual. if they are willing to take the responsibility then they can do what they want. NOWHERE did i see the original poster say she planed on doing anything other than being responsible.
You folks just like to attack people who don't share your opinion about breeding, even if you are guilty of similar indiscretions (and that is where the hypocrite comments come in)

I've never bred any dog that I have owned (or cat for that matter). I didn't attack anyone.

You just like to argue.

 

[thatguy]

I've never bred any dog that I have owned (or cat for that matter). I didn't attack anyone.

You just like to argue.

and you obviously have reading comprehension problems. i didn't say you bred your dogs or cats.

in fact, i didn't say YOU attacked anyone. i mearly pointed out that you were pretending to be oblivious to the other persons point.

 

[Pandora]

like ape shiat!

 

[ICit]

i was explaining the other posters point to catt b/c she wanted to pretend she was oblivious.

as for breeding, it should be up to the individual. if they are willing to take the responsibility then they can do what they want. NOWHERE did i see the original poster say she planed on doing anything other than being responsible.
You folks just like to attack people who don't share your opinion about breeding, even if you are guilty of similar indiscretions (and that is where the hypocrite comments come in)

I purchased a dog to be a working dog.... not all rescue dogs have the will, the drive, desire to "work". I got lucky with my first bloodhound I rescued... pretty sure I was not going to get lucky the second time. I wanted to start from a pup and develop that relationship and is crucial to a "team" - Handler/K-9. She was spayed at 9 months! That was in my contract... OH noooooo I didnt want to breed. If I want a pet... I would rescue a dog in a heartbeat.... but right now I only have room for dogs that want a working career. So I dont see that as a hypocrite on my part.

As for her being responsible???? She should have known about all the Certs she needed on her dog to be a "good" breeder. Things she should be doing with the dog, that she should not breed the dog before he was 2 years of age.... she seemed not to have known none of this. I hope it opens her eyes that its not what she thought of. Chows have lots of health issues... hope its not passed on if there are any.