Should Non-Christians celebrate Christmas?

[ItalianScallion]

Actually, they do... rather often. I've been dealing with it on an almost daily basis from people here in So. MD over the past month or so. Everything from people complaining about companies throwing "Holiday Parties" instead of "Christmas Parties", to the fact that people get pissy over the fact that more than one holiday might fall on the same day of the year. A family member of mine actually had the gal to ask me to celebrate on a different day than I've been celebrating Solstice for YEARS... just because it fell on the same day as Christmas. And if you read through some of the prior posts, several people got rather snarky about the entire thing, like non-believers celebrating Christmas really had an effect on their holiday experience. The worst part is those who complain about it without realizing that half the things they're doing to celebrate the holiday are all pagan traditions, started by people long before the birth of Christ.
I'm not saying ALL Christians get this way, mind you... that would, from what I've seen of studying the religion, go completely against quite a few Christian values, wouldn't it? But unfortunately, some people are plagued with intolerance and ignorance, and they tend to ruin things for those who aren't. I apologize if my overly broad comment offended you, wasn't my intention.

Well it seems that you work and are related to, people who are exceptions to the rule. I've never heard anyone complain about the day a holiday falls on competing with Christmas. Hopefully (and possibly) the complainers are not Christians because (I agree with you) their behavior is NOT "becoming of a Christian". Who cares what they call an office party, right? And yes, Christmas has gotten waayyy too commercial!
My opinion is that people can all celebrate whatever holidays they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others in a negative way. Who cares who gets offended! No one ever died from being offended. I don't agree with many of the newly celebrated holidays but "to each his own" and if you don't try to stop me, I won't stop you. I may speak out against certain events, but I won't try to stop you from celebrating them.
I and others do get "snarky" with non-believers when they try to stop our celebration of Christmas. You probably would too depending on the situation.

And don't worry about me sweetheart. You cannot offend me; but thank you for your consideration.

 

[itsbob]

What proof do you have the Jesus is a fictional character (to make such a claim)?

What proof do you have that Santa is?

Jesus was a person that existed, nothing more, nothing less. He was an anarchist, a trouble maker and was punished according to the laws of the day (not executed by the way). Much after his passing people decided to make a myth to fool most of mankind for thousands of years. Now this myth has become reality much like the Sun Gods of South America, or the Greek Gods. You tell a story enough times, no matter how far fetched, people will, after time, believe and treat it as truth.

The existence, and the miracles performed by Santa every year, are no more or less believable than the miracles performed by Jesus 2000 years ago. Though Santa has more followers he doesn't ask anything of his followers other than being good..

 

[itsbob]

I neither suggested he was nor was not. YOU made the claim Jesus is fictional. Please, feel free to back that up with proof.Proof of these claims?Just looking for the proof on Jesus, no worries nor claims about Santa.

I already told you, Jesus existed.. He was a thug, in today's term's an anarchist.. he was punished, he lived out his life.

400 years after his passing others developed stories about him that could not be disproved. Just like if I told you, a member of my family discovered America 500 years before Columbus did. You can't prove they didn't!

What I will tell you is ficition, is at no time in our history did ANYONE live to the age of >600 years.. nobody talked to a burning bush, as bushes can't talk.. and the list goes on and on. If you choose to believe these stories that's up to you. I beleve we, as a society, have enough knowledge to say "WHAT?? You REALLY expect me to believe this?" We are too eductated, too knowledgable to put any credence into most of the Bible stories, and will say if you believe all of it, then you have NO reason not to believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.

 

[hvp05]

I've been dealing with it on an almost daily basis from people here in So. MD over the past month or so. Everything from people complaining about companies throwing "Holiday Parties" instead of "Christmas Parties", to the fact that people get pissy over the fact that more than one holiday might fall on the same day of the year.

I've heard similar complaints, but I don't get worked up about them. Sometimes they have merit. Such as renaming something a "Holiday" whatever when it is clearly, traditionally a "Christmas" thing. Neither side in this argument is totally clean, and I think both sides can be pissy and petty, as they can be whenever religion is brought up.

We would all be far better off if folks would relax, be less defensive and focus on the spirit of the season - regardless of your basis for celebrating.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I neither suggested he was nor was not. YOU made the claim Jesus is fictional. Please, feel free to back that up with proof.Proof of these claims?Just looking for the proof on Jesus, no worries nor claims about Santa.

I'm not going to take either side here, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment. There is no concrete proof that Jesus the MAN actually existed outside of books with stories of him in them. St Nicholas, the man "Santa" was based off of, has been proven to have existed because he was born and lived a long while AFTER we started doing things like keeping records of births and deaths.

Do I think Jesus the MAN existed? Yeah, I guess it's a possibility. Do I believe any of the things the stories about him say? Outside of trying to teach a message of love to those around him, nope. I don't believe he healed the sick with a touch, I don't believe he talked to some higher power or was even the son of said higher power. As for Saint Nicholas... I believe he was a man who lived and was generous, giving out gifts and the like, but I also don't believe he could slide down chimneys or had a flying sleigh, either.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

If you make the claim that Jesus, as son of God, is fictional (not that you don't believe it, but that His status as son of God is, in fact, fictional) you need to back that up, though.

In all reality, all Jesus is these days is a symbol(because there is no evidence he actually did in fact LIVE, let alone that he was the son of "God"). Symbols only have power if we, as people, give them that power. In order to be able to back up that Jesus wasn't the son of God, you would infact have to proove the existance(or nonexistance as it were) of God the higher power... at which point, it would invalidate faith, because it would then become fact. Someone does not need faith to know fact.

So if someone were to be able to somehow proove that God does not exist, to be able to provide facts and real hard proof that that higher power didn't exist, do you really think everyone around the world would stop believing? No, because most people NEED that belief. They NEED that faith, and without it, everything they've based their life around would crumble. People will cling to whatever keeps them going, even if it's been proven to be untrue.

So really, at the end of the day, it comes down not to "was Jesus the son of God", but "do you BELIEVE he was the son of God?". Because that's honestly all that really matters, whether or not you give that symbol power by putting your faith behind it.

 

[ItalianScallion]

In all reality, all Jesus is these days is a symbol(because there is no evidence he actually did in fact LIVE, let alone that he was the son of "God"). Symbols only have power if we, as people, give them that power. In order to be able to back up that Jesus wasn't the son of God, you would infact have to prove the existance(or nonexistance as it were) of God the higher power... at which point, it would invalidate faith, because it would then become fact. Someone does not need faith to know fact.

Although you make a good point about faith, you totally miss the fact that He HAS left us ample proof (evidence) of His existence. Since He is as loving as He claims to be, how could anyone think He would expect us to believe in Him without any evidence? Ours is not a blind faith. You don't have to see something to believe in it.
I've said this before: In 2002 a tornado came through LaPlata. I came up 301, right through there, about 20 minutes after it hit so I didn't see the actual tornado. What I saw was the evidence of it so that I could confidently say that a tornado did in fact hit LaPlata.
By the same reasoning, I am completely sold on the existence of Jesus because of the multitude of evidence for His existence that the Bible speaks of. No one forced me to believe it but, after reading it, I realized that the evidence was there and was overwhelmingly true.
I've seen His guidance in my life so much so that I could not contribute it to "chance". I've watched things happen that could in no way have been a co-incidence, so please tell me what proof you have that Jesus didn't exist and I'll give you many examples that he did. TYVM.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Although you make a good point about faith, you totally miss the fact that He HAS left us ample proof (evidence) of His existence. Since He is as loving as He claims to be, how could anyone think He would expect us to believe in Him without any evidence? Ours is not a blind faith. You don't have to see something to believe in it.
I've said this before: In 2002 a tornado came through LaPlata. I came up 301, right through there, about 20 minutes after it hit so I didn't see the actual tornado. What I saw was the evidence of it so that I could confidently say that a tornado did in fact hit LaPlata.
By the same reasoning, I am completely sold on the existence of Jesus because of the multitude of evidence for His existence that the Bible speaks of. No one forced me to believe it but, after reading it, I realized that the evidence was there and was overwhelmingly true.
I've seen His guidance in my life so much so that I could not contribute it to "chance". I've watched things happen that could in no way have been a co-incidence, so please tell me what proof you have that Jesus didn't exist and I'll give you many examples that he did. TYVM.

My point was not that it can be proven that he didn't exist, but that there's absolutely no concrete evidence that he's more than a character in a series of stories found in a book. There's no other records, no tomb has ever been found, etc. So just like I can't prove that he DIDNT exist, you can't prove that he DID either. Personally, I've read the bible cover to cover and quite a few other religious texts because I enjoy trying to understand things. I think the bible is a great tool for teaching morals and a good way to live your life, but do I think half, if any, of those things actually happened? Honestly? No.

You can say that the tornado tearing through La Plata was proof that God exists, but it can also be said that it was a natural event that could be explained with science, just like the recent snow storm we had. You can't prove that your God caused the tornado, I can't prove that he didn't. You hang on to your faith, I'll look to science when it provides what I believe to be a more believable explanation.

In my opinion, you can believe what you want, but saying something like seeing the aftermath of a Tornado is enough to prove that God exists is like saying getting hit with spaghetti in a cafeteria food fight is enough to prove that the Sphagetti Noodle Monster exists.

Also, in case I misread(I might have, I'm on heavy cold medication atm and a little out of it at the moment), if you're saying that the bible is proof enough of Jesus' existence... does that mean that the seven Harry Potter books are enough to prove that wizards exist? Cause that would be awesome!

 

[toppick08]

I scream "Oh God" or "Dear Jesus" during an orgasm......guess I'm going to Hell......:shrug:

 

[Beta84]

But, I did not make the claim that Jesus, as Son of God, was fact based; only that His status as such is faith based.

Bob said that His status as NOT the Son of God is, indeed, a fact. He said any claim that Jesus is Son of God is "fictional". I'm looking for his proof that Jesus, as Son of God, is "fictional". Or, is that what Bob has faith in - that Jesus is "fictional", or, in your words, symbolic.

Do you see where I'm going here?

I guess nobody can say for certain that there is any fact or fiction in any fairy tale they read. Jesus? Santa? Zeus? Big Foot? Is there proof any of them exist? Proof that any of them didn't exist? How about Joseph Smith? Is there any proof that his book of Mormon is false?

The Romans took over the Greek gods and made them their own long after conquering Greece, changed the story around some, and then used that as their new religion for awhile. They could have easily done that with Christianity as well for all we know. We already know that Christianity has tried to squash certain religions and has adopted numerous customs as their own (take Christmas for example). We already know Rome conquered various countries and adopted some of their customs as their own, losing their origins in history. I'm not saying that offers proof positive, but I'm sure some argument can be made from that.

 

[mAlice]

And there you go.
I'm curious what you read that pushed you away from God?
Psalm 68 v 5 & 6.

I find it interesting that the very reason you claim for my lack of faith, is more likely the reason I started searching for the truth in the first place.
Remember the part where I said "I bought into it"? I wanted to believe there was someone who could make it all better. It makes more sense to want some deity in your life and make it all better, than not.

I wasn't really "pushed" away, so to speak. I've always thought that there is something incredibly wrong with a group of people who claim to be so righteous, yet are the biggest group of unrighteous hypocrite's I've ever encountered, then claim human imperfection for their behavior, and that they are forgiven because they are christian and prayed for forgiveness. This logic doesn't work for me.

So, I kept reading until I found what I had been looking for all along. The truth.

See, in my eyes I haven't fallen away from anything. In my eyes, I have found the truth. I'm the only one responsible for my life, and my actions.

 

[mAlice]

Your truth does not conflict with Christianity, though. In fact, it is the exact same message - your actions are your responsibility, and lead to your consequences (good or bad).

The difference is, I'm not going to say my actions are because I'm human and make mistakes, then tell you I've been forgiven because I'm a christian.

 

[mAlice]

You don't make mistakes? Or, what is your reason other than being a non-perfect human?

Of course I make mistakes. You obviously missed the point.

 

[Cowgirl]

And there you go.
I'm curious what you read that pushed you away from God?
Psalm 68 v 5 & 6.

I'm a non-believer and I have a wonderful Dad and had a wonderful childhood.

 

[mAlice]

I'm a non-believer and I have a wonderful Dad and had a wonderful childhood.

Wow! There goes that theory!

 

[Beta84]

You don't make mistakes? Or, what is your reason other than being a non-perfect human?

she was talking about the being forgiven for being christian bit...

 

[Beta84]

If the only point was being forgiven by God for your mistakes (if you acknowledge your mistakes, acknowledge a higher power, and repent - but you left those things off), well of course not. If you don't believe in God, why would you care if He forgives you? How could you acknowledge a higher power if you DON'T acknowledge a higher power? How could you repent if you don't feel you have anything to repent for, since the consequences of your actions to anyone else are meaningless since you are responsible only to yourself?

You're automatically assuming that religion is required in order to have a conscience. People can feel bad for doing things that are wrong. Religion was probably invented to keep people in check that would otherwise have no conscience. It certainly works best for the 'sheep'.

 

[mAlice]

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm taking her at her word. If she's the ONLY one responsible for her life and her actions (note, no mention of the consequences to others), then it is implicit in that statement that others are the ONLY ones responsible for theirs.

I'm not the one doing the assuming.

Did you find the proof to back up your statement about Jesus, as Son of God, being fictional? Are you ready to admit that's just your belief?

 

[Beta84]

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm taking her at her word. If she's the ONLY one responsible for her life and her actions (note, no mention of the consequences to others), then it is implicit in that statement that others are the ONLY ones responsible for theirs.

I'm not the one doing the assuming.

Did you find the proof to back up your statement about Jesus, as Son of God, being fictional? Are you ready to admit that's just your belief?

No, you can be responsible for only your actions but still feel guilt if you do something wrong. You're putting 1 and 1 together and getting 72.

Also, I think you're confusing me with Bob.

 

[Beta84]

Feeling bad and feeling responsible are two very different things. VERY different.You are correct. And, I apologize.

If you feel responsible for your own actions then you'd feel responsible for doing wrong unto others.