Abortion moves to the next sickening phase

[czygvtwkr]

I expect a report of your activities next weekend.

Why would I report, you are the one that believes talking about something is enough to fix a great evil. Maybe you don't like babies as much as you thought you did?

 

[PsyOps]

Why would I report, you are the one that believes talking about something is enough to fix a great evil. Maybe you don't like babies as much as you thought you did?

Now I know you’re just jerking my chain. It’s been fun but your game is over. Thanks for playing.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Where did you come up with this number? Exactly how are 20% of all human fetuses are aborted naturally? If this were even remotely true, how does this justify humans butchering humans?

Just google miscarriage rates. Here's one source...
http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html

The point about miscarriage, is God allows it to happen. And Christians who believe he is omnipotent and is in control of all events on earth, fail to reason honestly about this. If God is omnipotent, he could certainly stop, or at least reduce, the huge human toll of suffering miscarriages create or at least have created a more perfect human female body in the first place, i.e. "intelligent design". But God allows this horror.

The point I was trying to make had to do with the beliefs of Christians who tend to rationalize away anything that does not make sense by saying 'who can understand the will of God'. From a strictly logical standpoint, any God who allows this human horror to happen either can do nothing about it or does not care to. He is therefore either impotent or evil.

On the subject of abortion, as stated in another post, Christians may want to prioritize the saving of lives of the already born. That is not to say that they should not discourage abortion for the sake of convenience only, as I think all of society should do.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

There it is... "They can't make their own decisions" They don't have a voice to scream out when their flesh is ripped apart. This makes it so much easier to dismiss butchering a baby as merely a lump of flesh and blood; not a life - a human life. Children at the age of 1 can't make their own decisions; but the parents can. So, do we really want to go there based on that weak standard? The problem with this, according to the report, the parents didn't know this was happening. Apparently the Department of Health didn't know and when they found out, they banned the practice.

"They don't have a voice to scream out when their flesh is ripped apart"

The bulk of the scientific literature on the subject finds that the brain connections needed to feel pain are not in place until at least 24-26 weeks after conception.

 

[PsyOps]

Just google miscarriage rates. Here's one source...
http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html

The point about miscarriage, is God allows it to happen. And Christians who believe he is omnipotent and is in control of all events on earth, fail to reason honestly about this. If God is omnipotent, he could certainly stop, or at least reduce, the huge human toll of suffering miscarriages create or at least have created a more perfect human female body in the first place, i.e. "intelligent design". But God allows this horror.

The point I was trying to make had to do with the beliefs of Christians who tend to rationalize away anything that does not make sense by saying 'who can understand the will of God'. From a strictly logical standpoint, any God who allows this human horror to happen either can do nothing about it or does not care to. He is therefore either impotent or evil.

On the subject of abortion, as stated in another post, Christians may want to prioritize the saving of lives of the already born. That is not to say that they should not discourage abortion for the sake of convenience only, as I think all of society should do.

Being in control of all events doesn’t mean He is dictating every little move. Do you give credit to God for all the good things that happen as well as condemn Him for the bad? Was it an act of God that Bill Gates fell into such success and made billions; or was it Bill Gates’ hard work that reaped those results?

God allows good and bad to happen on their own accord through the nature that He set in motion. It’s not that God doesn’t care, it’s that it’s of no consequence to Him since He doesn’t really deal with things in terms of our human flesh. He deals with our souls. It’s not what happens to our flesh, it’s what happens to our souls. He didn’t come to save us from dying on earth and the suffering that goes with that; he came to save our souls to a place where there will be no more suffering.

I accept that abortions are going to happen. The souls of those butchered babies will certainly be with God. So, in the long-term grand scheme of things, what happens here and now is really of no consequence to their souls. It’s the souls of the living that will suffer the ultimate consequences. It’s the growing decline of our moral output that is leading more and more people away from God and into a pit of corruption and debasement.

Miscarriages can be viewed, in a lot of ways, like car accidents or heart attacks – they happen. God’s nature decided it was time for it to happen. I can’t explain and I wont try to. But I certainly wont blame God because of how He decided to handle His own creation.

Now… you seem to not be a believer. If that’s the case… why do you care? If you don’t believe in a creator, then you have to believe that a miscarriage is a dictate of nature. Out of our control.

 

[PsyOps]

"They don't have a voice to scream out when their flesh is ripped apart"

The bulk of the scientific literature on the subject finds that the brain connections needed to feel pain are not in place until at least 24-26 weeks after conception.

I happen to think that science is flawed. Just my opinion. They really don't know for sure. Convenient that the research makes it all-the-more convenient to justify ripping human flesh apart in such a manner.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Being in control of all events doesn’t mean He is dictating every little move. Do you give credit to God for all the good things that happen as well as condemn Him for the bad? Was it an act of God that Bill Gates fell into such success and made billions; or was it Bill Gates’ hard work that reaped those results?

God allows good and bad to happen on their own accord through the nature that He set in motion. It’s not that God doesn’t care, it’s that it’s of no consequence to Him since He doesn’t really deal with things in terms of our human flesh. He deals with our souls. It’s not what happens to our flesh, it’s what happens to our souls. He didn’t come to save us from dying on earth and the suffering that goes with that; he came to save our souls to a place where there will be no more suffering.

I accept that abortions are going to happen. The souls of those butchered babies will certainly be with God. So, in the long-term grand scheme of things, what happens here and now is really of no consequence to their souls. It’s the souls of the living that will suffer the ultimate consequences. It’s the growing decline of our moral output that is leading more and more people away from God and into a pit of corruption and debasement.

Miscarriages can be viewed, in a lot of ways, like car accidents or heart attacks – they happen. God’s nature decided it was time for it to happen. I can’t explain and I wont try to. But I certainly wont blame God because of how He decided to handle His own creation.

Now… you seem to not be a believer. If that’s the case… why do you care? If you don’t believe in a creator, then you have to believe that a miscarriage is a dictate of nature. Out of our control.

Again, if you believe in a personal God, i.e. the God of Christianity, your logic is flawed. Refer to your Bible.

But if you believe only that a Supernatural God exists – not tied to any Religion - as one singular creator of the universe whose creation obeys the natural laws of the universe, your argument has merit.

I disagree with your assertion that moral decline is due to people getting away from God. A strong case exists for Religion being the root of most but not all evil in the world today. But will leave that argument for another day.

I am neither a believer or disbeliever. There could be a creator of the universe. But unlike you, I do not claim absolute certainty.

It may seem odd to you, but I care because I am human.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Now I know you’re just jerking my chain. It’s been fun but your game is over. Thanks for playing.

Not jerking your chain at all. I'm not specifically addressing you but everyone that holds your views that doesn't do anything more than talk, protest, or vote a certain way. You just happen to be answering back, and I wish others would too.

I am trying to understand how something that is considered so horrible, something that people believe so strongly goes against God's will justifies doing the bare minimum. If I believed so strongly against it I would be doing everything that I could that fit into my morals (ie not causing harm to anyone else, property damage etc) that I possibly could.

Celebrities will talk and talk about a cause, hold a telethon but not give any of their own money, that is something else I don't understand, if something is that important to them shouldn't they do more?

Is it that most don't think they can do anything else? Are they afraid of failure? Do they not know what to do?

 

[mamatutu]

Not jerking your chain at all. I'm not specifically addressing you but everyone that holds your views that doesn't do anything more than talk, protest, or vote a certain way. You just happen to be answering back, and I wish others would too.

I am trying to understand how something that is considered so horrible, something that people believe so strongly goes against God's will justifies doing the bare minimum. If I believed so strongly against it I would be doing everything that I could that fit into my morals (ie not causing harm to anyone else, property damage etc) that I possibly could.

Celebrities will talk and talk about a cause, hold a telethon but not give any of their own money, that is something else I don't understand, if something is that important to them shouldn't they do more?

Is it that most don't think they can do anything else? Are they afraid of failure? Do they not know what to do?

LIKE

Many like to show their intellect which is fine. I like smart people. I am like you in questioning who will truly stand up if the poop really hits the fan. All of our merit will be tested. Then, we will know.

 

[PsyOps]

Not jerking your chain at all. I'm not specifically addressing you but everyone that holds your views that doesn't do anything more than talk, protest, or vote a certain way. You just happen to be answering back, and I wish others would too.

I am trying to understand how something that is considered so horrible, something that people believe so strongly goes against God's will justifies doing the bare minimum. If I believed so strongly against it I would be doing everything that I could that fit into my morals (ie not causing harm to anyone else, property damage etc) that I possibly could.

Celebrities will talk and talk about a cause, hold a telethon but not give any of their own money, that is something else I don't understand, if something is that important to them shouldn't they do more?

Is it that most don't think they can do anything else? Are they afraid of failure? Do they not know what to do?

What I choose to do about any issue I agree or disagree with is of none of your concern. I choose to deal with things on a level I choose; not by some arbitrary standard you’ve set; and by not following your standard I am somehow not living up to the demands of the cause. There are so many people that sit at home watching TV and playing video games, not having a voice about anything; complacent to the issues this world faces. I at least have conscience enough to engage in conversation; and I believe conversation reaps results equal to any other involvement you might deem as more worthy of serving that cause. Jesus spent the vast majority of him time talking. When He could have eradicated evil on this earth in an instant, He chose to talk to the people about their evil and through His words people would change. The Bible is called ‘The Word’. Words can effect change. Sometimes they are good enough. Sometimes they’re too much.

Abortion is just one issue where I have strong feelings; that this is just one symptom of a society in moral decline. My involvement is eradicating one symptom of a larger disease isn’t where I want to focus my efforts except in having discussions about it as an indicator of a larger problem. I’ve also said that I realize it’s a very personal thing for the individual going through it and I have decided that it’s not my place to intervene. It’s like smoking… I have learned that it’s none of my business to stick my face in someone else’s and lecture them about what I think they’re doing wrong. What I think is wrong isn’t what someone else thinks is wrong. Abortion is one of those issues where we are divided about the right and wrong about it.

Voicing my disagreement with something does not always equal my belief that it will ever change. Abortion has been around for a very long time. Nothing I do will change it. I am a Christian that believes these things are supposed to happen. I’m nothing more than a messenger among millions of messengers that feel compelled to talk about these things in that context. I have chosen the causes I believe I can affect change in individual lives; not causes that are world issues that won’t change no matter how many people try.

None of this means I should be silent about it. This is how I’ve decided to deal with abortion (among other issues I enjoy talking about. You do no one any favors by sticking your nose into our business lecturing us on how YOU think we should deal with things.

 

[PsyOps]

Again, if you believe in a personal God, i.e. the God of Christianity, your logic is flawed. Refer to your Bible.

But if you believe only that a Supernatural God exists – not tied to any Religion - as one singular creator of the universe whose creation obeys the natural laws of the universe, your argument has merit.

I disagree with your assertion that moral decline is due to people getting away from God. A strong case exists for Religion being the root of most but not all evil in the world today. But will leave that argument for another day.

I am neither a believer or disbeliever. There could be a creator of the universe. But unlike you, I do not claim absolute certainty.

It may seem odd to you, but I care because I am human.

I’m not going to get into my interpretation of the bible in this thread. If you want that discussion start a new thread.

I will say that I am not a man of ‘religion’. I have a faith, and that faith is in the Christian God. It’s obvious to me that this God created this world with certain laws of nature that we can see in operation every day. No matter how much we pray for it to be different, it’s not. No matter how much we want to attribute every event (good or bad). Given that, I agree with you that RELIGION the root of much evil. With religion comes power and when people have power in their hands they will abuse it. Religion, by-and-large, has become more about money than God. Religion has become more about politics than God. The infighting among denominations is really disturbing to me. They claim to have the same God yet hate each other for holding different interpretations. I’ve decided not to be part of that.

It doesn’t seem odd at all that you care. You don’t have to hold faith in a god in order to care. I just think your belief that God is up there pulling all the strings and is to blame for miscarriages is misguided. I suppose by extension of the fact that God created this world and as a result there are miscarriages you could blame God; but that’s like blaming the auto industry for car accidents. It’s a world that we view as imperfect because things go wrong. God made it exactly the way He wanted it; and in that it’s operating perfectly within the rules He created. It’s HIS creation not ours; and we just don’t get to say how we want it to be.

 

[czygvtwkr]

What I choose to do about any issue I agree or disagree with is of none of your concern.

Actually you invited that as soon as you tried to sway my opinion with your original post. I suppose it would be much easier for you if people blindly accepted your opinion, how dare I question you.

You do no one any favors by sticking your nose into our business lecturing us on how YOU think we should deal with things.

Then don't put your business out there on an open forum inviting discussion.

 

[PsyOps]

Actually you invited that as soon as you tried to sway my opinion with your original post. I suppose it would be much easier for you if people blindly accepted your opinion, how dare I question you.



Then don't put your business out there on an open forum inviting discussion.

I started a discussion not an invite for folks to tell me what I should be doing in everyday life. I have never tried to sway anyone’s opinion. I am not capable of doing that. I started a discussion in a discussion forum and you decided to chime in. No one made you do that. In fact, I replied to your first post agreeing that your aunt wasn't cruel and heartless for what happened to her. This isn’t black and white for me. Then, in your inability to counter my points, you decided to take this discussion in a completely different direction and go after me and my so-called lack of real concern for the problem because I don’t live up to your standard of what constitutes worthy concern for an issue.

If you don’t like the discussion, don’t join in. If you’re going to join in, don’t make it personal. If you do decide to make it personal then you had better expect to get it back at you. If you’re going to tell me what you think I should be doing, I’m going to tell you to mind your own stinking business. It’s none of your business what I do in my life and how I deal with issues. If I choose to talk about it, that’s what I’ll do. If I choose to give all of my money to military veterans returning with injuries rather than anti-abortion causes that’s what I choose to do; and it’s not for you to tell me otherwise. If I don’t live up to your standard I honestly don’t care. I give where I decide to give, and I voice where I decide to voice.

I’ve entertained your nonsense for far too long. I used to have respect for you, but that’s gone. See ya!

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I’m not going to get into my interpretation of the bible in this thread. If you want that discussion start a new thread.

I will say that I am not a man of ‘religion’. I have a faith, and that faith is in the Christian God. It’s obvious to me that this God created this world with certain laws of nature that we can see in operation every day. No matter how much we pray for it to be different, it’s not. No matter how much we want to attribute every event (good or bad). Given that, I agree with you that RELIGION the root of much evil. With religion comes power and when people have power in their hands they will abuse it. Religion, by-and-large, has become more about money than God. Religion has become more about politics than God. The infighting among denominations is really disturbing to me. They claim to have the same God yet hate each other for holding different interpretations. I’ve decided not to be part of that.

It doesn’t seem odd at all that you care. You don’t have to hold faith in a god in order to care. I just think your belief that God is up there pulling all the strings and is to blame for miscarriages is misguided. I suppose by extension of the fact that God created this world and as a result there are miscarriages you could blame God; but that’s like blaming the auto industry for car accidents. It’s a world that we view as imperfect because things go wrong. God made it exactly the way He wanted it; and in that it’s operating perfectly within the rules He created. It’s HIS creation not ours; and we just don’t get to say how we want it to be.

Logic dictates that a personal God is complicit in any form of human misery, including abortion, because he could always intervene - if he wanted to. This is not to say I am blaming him, only pointing out the obvious to Christians, as I do not believe in a personal God.

It may surprise you to know that I was once a devout Christian. Nagging doubts that were always there, but suppressed, finally turned into full blown revelations – but revelations of reality, not fantasy. I am no longer capable of suppressing my rational brain in order to gain favor with a highly improbable imaginary deity.

The known universe is estimated to include 150 Billion Galaxies which is the current low estimate based on Hubble Telescope data. That’s more than 20 galaxies per every living human on earth. Our own Milky Way galaxy would take 100,000 years to cross, if you could travel at the speed of light.

But this God of yours apparently has taken a keen interest in the latest mutation of hominids on a spec of a planet in an obscure corner of the universe. Lucky Us! And he is especially concerned about what we do while naked and who we are doing it with. Again, lucky us! Or maybe not so lucky us ;-(

 

[PsyOps]

Logic dictates that a personal God is complicit in any form of human misery, including abortion, because he could always intervene - if he wanted to. This is not to say I am blaming him, only pointing out the obvious to Christians, as I do not believe in a personal God.

It may surprise you to know that I was once a devout Christian. Nagging doubts that were always there, but suppressed, finally turned into full blown revelations – but revelations of reality, not fantasy. I am no longer capable of suppressing my rational brain in order to gain favor with a highly improbable imaginary deity.

If you’re trying to apply logic to something like a god, logic fails. Why would God even waste His time creating us? Are we some sick experiment? Was He bored and wanted company? Was it just out of necessity of who He is by nature?

But, by extension, I agree that everything that happens on this earth (good and bad) is God’s fault. If He hadn’t created all of this mess in the first place none of it would happen; NONE OF IT (good and bad). Funny how most folks tend to blame God for the bad things, but pretend He doesn’t even exist when good thing happen.

As I’ve tried to say, I think God set things in motion, established His laws of nature, and things occurs as they do under those laws of nature; not through every little thing, to its most minute detail, being dictated by the hand of God. I’d like to think the decisions I make are my decisions and not predetermined by God. And If I make a bad decision I don’t get the luxury of blaming God “well you created me, therefore it’s YOUR fault that I did a stupid thing”. The Bible is pretty clear that we get to decided whether we accept God or not. It makes no sense to give us a choice only to find out we really don't have that choice; that it's all predetermined by God. Of course, there's that logic thing...

The known universe is estimated to include 150 Billion Galaxies which is the current low estimate based on Hubble Telescope data. That’s more than 20 galaxies per every living human on earth. Our own Milky Way galaxy would take 100,000 years to cross, if you could travel at the speed of light.

But this God of yours apparently has taken a keen interest in the latest mutation of hominids on a spec of a planet in an obscure corner of the universe. Lucky Us! And he is especially concerned about what we do while naked and who we are doing it with. Again, lucky us! Or maybe not so lucky us ;-(

The one thing you’re overlooking in this is, God could have created intelligent beings in other parts of our universe, and he has similar plans for them. Maybe they are also sinful by nature and God provided a salvation plan for them. Perhaps God decided not to tell us about them because He knows we have enough to deal with on our own. I imagine this is the case millions of times over all over our universe. I’m not arrogant enough to believe we are it for God. If this God does exist (and I believe He does), He is a God that left more mysteries for us to figure out than he did answers.

If you don’t believe in God, then you’re still left with more questions than answers.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

“The one thing you’re overlooking in this is, God could have created intelligent beings in other parts of our universe, and he has similar plans for them.”

Right, it is virtually certain that life exists elsewhere in the universe and a very high probability that ‘intelligent’ life has evolved in the universe.

“As I’ve tried to say, I think God set things in motion, established His laws of nature, and things occurs as they do under those laws of nature; not through every little thing, to its most minute detail, being dictated by the hand of God. I’d like to think the decisions I make are my decisions and not predetermined by God.”

You uphold a very ‘contemporary’ version of Christianity, which is becoming more popular by the masses that still wish to believe something but cannot stomach the dogma of more traditional versions. I have less concern with people in this contemporary category -- unless they side with fundamentalist Christians who want to teach creationism in our schools and force their religious dogma into our laws.

“He is a God that left more mysteries for us to figure out than he did answers.
If you don’t believe in God, then you’re still left with more questions than answers.”

Well yes from a Bronze Age perspective when the earth was still flat. A 6 year old now knows more about reality of our world and universe than any Bronze Age Palestinian. We can fly, and have traveled to the moon. We can survive on a spacewalk in a virtual vacuum at -300F, we can transplant hearts, we can clone humans if we wanted to, we can see 13.5 Billion years into the universe and take pictures of black holes and stars being born. We communicate via invisible radio waves. We would be unfathomable Gods to people who lived 2000 years ago, and our powers would be incomprehensible to them.

Throughout recorded human history, every civilization, without exception, has created a god or gods. Humans have always devised myth based explanations to explain the natural world where little or no knowledge exists. God-making has been part of the human psyche for thousands of years. This is exactly why the God of Abraham, the Christian God was created by man.

in•doc•tri•nate to accept a set of beliefs uncritically, synonyms: brainwash

The majority of us are indoctrinated into the theology we were born into.
Had you been born in the Middle East, outside of Israel, it is a near certainty that you would now be a Muslim. Allah would be your one true creator of the universe.

But you are absolutely certain that Christianity is the one true religion, and you have chosen the one true God. Just think about how little sleep you will lose tonight concerned that the Muslims have the true version of ‘reality’. Or the Jews, the Hindus, on, and on.

When you understand why you reject these other Gods and Religions, you will understand why I reject yours.